Lately when cymbals are too much, I only mic the Kick / snare and toms. The bleed from the drum mics are always enough. You can work on placement just a little, but generally I have been very fortunate just with 4 mics.

Replace them with smaller cymbals. For studio recording, i find that it is better to have smaller cymbals that you don't have to hit as hard to get the full sound out of them. This solved my case of cymbals being too loud. It's just another option among many others i guess..?!

I have tried everything under the sun to fix the problem you're talking about, and the only thing that works is for the drummer to pound the daylights out of his drums, and hit his cymbals *very* softly. If the drummer is experienced enough to control that sort of thing, then it'll work every time it's tried.

This pretty much means that the drummer can't "rock out", and that's a drag, but it makes for better recordings. You'll get plenty of "rock" in the recording even if he hits softly, and you can always win yourself back in a drummer's good graces by giving him food. (To wit: I am a drummer.)

Most "session" drummers I know hit their drums very hard, and their cymbals very soft.

Barring that, try putting cheap towels over the cymbals (punch a hole in the middle of them, but mind what the lady of the house thinks about it first), or use some of those sound-off thick rubber pads ($10-$15 at any drum shop), and dub the cymbals later. I know these options are drastic, so that's why I stress that coaching the drummer might be your best bet.

I could go on with all the other screwy things I've tried, but remember: you can try to fix things by micing and studio trickery and all that, but getting it right in the real world to begin with not only sounds best, it saves time (AKA: $$) and headaches, too.

Frazer,
What are you recording to? If it's DAW you can edit the tom tracks so there isn't any cymbal spill ... if it's not a DAW you can try some noise gates and you go to the recorder..

I have had the same problem, and I've found that coaching the drummer is the best option since it is the cheapest.

However, smaller, lighter cymbals for the studio permanently solved the problem.

Do not put your room mics high. Put them around little taller than waist height and you will have less cymbals more drums. I don't believe in coaching the drummer into playing lightly because most of the time it makes them become preoccupied with hitting the cymbals lightly, and lose concentration.
Most the time tightining the cymbals with thick felts work to minimize cymbal wash.

I don't believe in coaching the drummer into playing lightly because most of the time it makes them become preoccupied with hitting the cymbals lightly, and lose concentration.

This is true for the novice and those that lack experience, but a good seasoned pro drummer can and should be able to control the dynamics of his instrument just like any other musician does with theirs. No amount of pading, mic placement, mic choice, isolation or anything else is going to make as much difference as choosing the right type of cymbals that don't over power and a drummer that is capable of using the right technique in playing them.

If the problem is in using the OH mics, don't use them. You don't HAVE to have or use OH mics. If you think it is the ceiling giving you grief, hang up a heavy blanket or sleeping bag from the ceiling over the drums and see what it does for you. You might even make a sort blanket drum booth to enclose the drumset. Here is your chance to be both creative and resourceful in solving a real problem.

Originally posted by Mike Zartarian:
I have had the same problem, and I've found that coaching the drummer is the best option since it is the cheapest.

However, smaller, lighter cymbals for the studio permanently solved the problem.

Thanks. Have you any recomendations for a ride cymbal.

I think what I'm gonna do is put auralex on the ceiling, buy a better ride cymbal. I understand peoples comments about not using overheads or room mics, but I jus don't like the sound of drums on close mics only. I can never make them sound real and mush together.

Well, coaching the drummer on technique and cymbal thickness would certainly be great if it worked but unless your dealing with at least semi pro musicians you’re not likely to get very far that way. The acoustic treatment on the ceiling is the trick. Small rooms with short ceilings are notorious for having bad high-end problems. It's amazing how much a little foam on the ceiling can help. If your still having problems after you do the ceiling, it can help to do two adjoining walls as well. The main idea being to take care of the problem without completely deadening the room.

If you have to use foam, be sure it is fire retardent. I would put up Owens-Corning 703 or 705.

"If you have to use foam, be sure it is fire retardent. I would put up Owens-Corning 703 or 705." (quote: Kurt Foster).

Hey, no Spinal Tap jokes, please!

If the drummer isn't experienced with recording, the best time to tell him is at the end of the day so you don't shake his confidence. If he (or she) is a pro they won't have a problem adjusting.
Another trick would be to boost the OHs in the drummer's headphone mix and add some high end/cut low end so they hear the cymbals real loud in the phones. David

if you can I would try to use something like a royer r 121 (one could be enough) in front of the kick about 3-4 feet away and about 6in. from the floor.

maybe a cool multiband compressor would do it too even a TC triple c could work. use one band only compressing really hard everything above 4k and then using a lill bit of eq after that and than another compressor (more like a vitage british one) after the eq to get a fuller sound. than I would blend it gently in the mix so it's not gona be too obvious.
just an indea, good luck!

Just because you slap some foam on the ceiling that does not mean it will fix your problem, and if your not sure, this kind of shot gun apporach could give you other problems in recording or later in mixing.

Another trick would be to boost the OHs in the drummer's headphone mix and add some high end/cut low end so they hear the cymbals real loud in the phones

The Doc has the correct perscription to let the drummer know what is going on by making him hear and feel the same pain as you do. Dynamic control of your instrument is something every musician needs to know how to do, including those who play drums. Make the drummer aware that how his instruments sounds being recorded is just as much his responsability as the guy doing the recording, and is something that he needs to learn. While it does take some time and skill to master the ability of control in dynamic playing techniques, I find that most drummers can adapt to least doing a beter job after they understand and try to apply this then how they were playing before not knowing and understanding this.

As for cymbals...a softer alloy is called for here.The old A Zildjians.The older cymbals were made for tone not for projection..Everything today is for playing live and projecting.This is NoT what you want for recording.You want cymbals that sound good,with nice balanced tones throughout the cymbal from bell to edge, and ones that have a marked decay.It makes it so much easier to develope a mix when you're not trying to decide how to get the overrings out of everything else.In the old studio, we went and specifically found a set of cymbals just for recording.They were all old Zild A's.very soft alloy and very well mannered.I'm not talking dead, just physically controlled to begin with.It'll make your job much easier no matter what room you're in.

As for padding the ceiling...well theres quite a lot you can do with the adjoining surfaces rather than the surface above the drumset.Opposite walls that join the ceiling are great big reflectors and heres where your best use of blankets/rugs/auralex will do the best.a packing blanket on the kick drum eliminates some of the reflections from under the cymbals as well as giving a better isolation of the kick mic.Reflective surfaces above and below a kit are not the worst thing as are the off-axis surfaces adjoining them.Its like cutting down the spray to a manageable level.

The Zildjian K's and the Sabian HH's tend to be on the darker sound as well, and that may be a good place to start. However, I'd agree that trying to get the drummer to not bash the cymbals so hard would be the ideal way to combat the problem. If he doesn't hear that he's playing the cymbals too hard, then you'll have to resort to some rather unnatural trickery to get things right. Having a drummer with a good ear and sense of balance makes life much easier for everyone.

Having said that, I'd also agree that ribbon microphones do a good job of taking the edge off. Deadening the reflections in the room also should help...even a little bit of foam can help tremendously, as it's much more effective at higher frequencies than lower. Those movable foam panels that mount on stands can be lifesavers.

-Duardo

Originally posted by coysoundnyc:
if you can I would try to use something like a royer r 121 (one could be enough) in front of the kick about 3-4 feet away and about 6in. from the floor.

Thanks for that. It was one of the questions i forgot to ask!!

I'm toying with the idear of buying a ribbon mic anyway for accoustic guitar. Do you think the Royer significantly better than the Octava. I assume it must be because if the price, but I few peoplw have mentioned its very good and for $400 I could afford to get that and a new mic pre.

Originally posted by coysoundnyc:
maybe a cool multiband compressor would do it too even a TC triple c could work. use one band only compressing really hard everything above 4k and then using a lill bit of eq after that and than another compressor (more like a vitage british one) after the eq to get a fuller sound. than I would blend it gently in the mix so it's not gona be too obvious.
just an indea, good luck!

No multiband comp i'm affraid. I do have a 1969 and my vari mu arrives tomorrow (I hope). Would it work using the 1969 with the side chain massively boosted at 4k?

Thanks for your suggestions they are very helpful. Im borrowing an Octava tomorrow.

you can try the side chain or you can use some plugins, pretty much every daw as a multich comp. available.
As far as the octava goes I could not tell because I have never used it, but I can tell you that the royer r121 is great for 2 reason:
1 it have an unreal, full tone
2 you can place it 1 ft from you amp blowin at 11 and won't break.

coles does great sounding mics too, but if you hit them too hard the ribbon element will probably get messed up.
have fun
cheers

Originally posted by AudioGaff:
a good seasoned pro drummer can and should be able to control the dynamics of his instrument just like any other musician does with theirs. No amount of pading, mic placement, mic choice, isolation or anything else is going to make as much difference as choosing the right type of cymbals that don't over power and a drummer that is capable of using the right technique in playing them.[/QB]

While you are looking for a recording technique to fix the cymbal problem, and some may help, the skill of the player is ultimately the wall you are going to run into. In a recent recording with the band i am in i found it hard to be in the same room as the drummer because of the intense SPL coming off of his snare... and this was a big room. The cymbals, however, were at a very comfortable level. On the recording it sounded amazing!

This may not help you if you are the engineer for a band that just walked in off the street but it is something to consider when looking for a drummer to record with!

greg

Put a couple of goboes ( or if you dont have them, try blankets hanging ove some mic stands) near the kit (on either side of the kit - or facing the kit @ aprox. 45 degree angle). On the side opposit of the drums, face mic(s) into the gobo.
And/or ... face some room mic(s) into the wall.

Originally posted by RecorderMan:
Put a couple of goboes ( or if you dont have them, try blankets hanging ove some mic stands) near the kit (on either side of the kit - or facing the kit @ aprox. 45 degree angle). On the side opposit of the drums, face mic(s) into the gobo.
And/or ... face some room mic(s) into the wall.

What's a goboe please!

it is an italian name to describe a man with a bump on his shoulder or another name for a buffle or some kind of barrier.
It basically stops the sound by some degree.
it is a movable sound barrier usually about 7 feet tall and about 3 to 4 feet wide

G'day,

have you considered a combination of electronic and acoustic drums. I have a drummer friend who does this and he pulls great drum sounds.

for example, you may be able to utilise the electronic cymbals, record them as midi, if you dont like thier sound just replace them with samples.

I sometimes record real kick snare and hats and the rest electronic and with a bit of work it doesnt turn out too bad.

well, good luck!

Sammyg

http://www.davemiranda.com/dmeduc.htm

Check out the frequently asked questions section. Specifically #4.

I just finished a session where I had this same problem. It was a combination of poor cymbals (loud, crashy, garbage can lids) and the technique (rapid-fire, heavy-handed, non-stop crash cymbal abuse).

It was a mess! I spent a good hour experimenting with mic choice and placement for the OH's, and still ended up with heavy cymbals. I just ended up using less of the OHs then I normally would, and applied enough EQ tweaks to get it to sound the best that I could.

In the end, they were actually pretty happy with the overall drum sound, so I guess it was the sound they were looking for afterall (heavy cymbals).

I close-mic'ed everything, so that helped me to compensate for the lower-then usual OH's, and we got such a great snare/kick/tom sound, they drums actually sound pretty good when he is not killing his cymbals. He also beats the crap out of his hats (open hats), and they had to be the worst-sounding hats I have ever heard. I knew before I even pulled up a mic that we where in trouble!

I guess for me, the lesson I learned here was that even after working as hard as I could to fix what I though were major problems, in the end, it was the sound they wanted in the first place! (hard to believe, but...!).

Time for me move on beyond this project...man, my ears are still ringing from the sound of those damn cymbals! What a nightmare!

Originally posted by tripnek:
http://www.davemiranda.com/dmeduc.htm

Check out the frequently asked questions section. Specifically #4.

Very useful! thanks.

Originally posted by sammyg:
G'day,

have you considered a combination of electronic and acoustic drums. I have a drummer friend who does this and he pulls great drum sounds.

for example, you may be able to utilise the electronic cymbals, record them as midi, if you dont like thier sound just replace them with samples.

Wow you're the first person I've heard of that uses fake cymbals and real drums,if anything it's usually the other way around. :eek:

I sometimes record real kick snare and hats and the rest electronic and with a bit of work it doesnt turn out too bad.

well, good luck!

Sammyg

Wow you're the first person I've heard of that uses fake cymbals and real drums,if anything it's usually the other way around. :eek:

i read an article a long time ago that said to always record cymbals that are two or three inches smaller than what you use live. when my band records our full length, we're going to be borrowing 15" and 16" A Customs because our normal setup is a 17" A Custom and an 18" AAX (i think it's an AAX...i know it's Sabian, that's about it). I think the hats we're going to be using are 14" A Customs also. I've always been ultra paranoid about overly loud cymbals and for the past couple weeks i have done nothing but bitch and complain about keeping this from becoming a problem. this is what we plan on doing:
drummer will hit them softer
cymbals will be raised up higher than normal
two sheets of 2x4 auralex pyramids directly over the kit
smaller cymbals

if we have a cymbal problem...i quit. i'm going to work at the IRS or the proctologist or something...

I've had success with Mundox's technique, waist high and about 4-6 out in front of the kit. That and a kick mic, instant John Bonham!

Doc's suggestion of letting the drummer HEAR what's happening is the best.

I'm a old club drummer that has done a lot of session work recently and quickly learned that I rarely use any of my heavier crashes in the studio (I'm not a heavier hitter anyway, except when it's called for).

The suggestion of old Zildjian A's is a good one, and also thinner faster cymbals for recording. A darker and drier ride is also better. I have a large collection of cymbals and people always ask why I own so many and I have to tell them it's for different applications. I own a few Zildjian Custom K projection crashes and I have no dea why I ever bought them. They're just way too loud and don't really sound good with soft touches. I'll be selling them to a rock or punk drummer.

The drummer has to learn how to play for recording and no amount of electronic fixing will give a good performance if the cymbals are screaming. I am one that likes it when the sound engineer only has to tweek things so that the recording sounds like what the drummer played.

Boost his tracking cans.