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audiokid 17 March 2012

Hey!

JohnTodd has a new album out and there are some great songs on it! He was kind enough to allow me to play with this track "I'll Be There" So below is the journey.

Kudo's John!

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PLEASE NOTE: I'm doing this to engage us all, not to prove I am some mixing god etc. However, I also have some nice equipment so I thought it would be right on if I could help him out by trying to make it a little better. In the process, what a great way to engage people by sharing what I'm doing and to also welcome advice from our members too. I want to see this new forum "Track Talk" grow so I'm diving in ya all, all in the name of learning and having fun.

This is such a beautiful song, I think it would make a great mix contest. But for now, this thread is a continuation of more mix's

The Tracks:

There are 30 tracks. Only 1 stereo drum track, a few guitars, a few keys, and a lot of vocals.

Enjoy!

EDIT

Song completed, Who's Next?

This thread is discussing mixing process with one of John's song. Its also part of the continued discussion I am preparing for with a Mix Contest ( not necessarily with this song).
Most of the reference tracks in this thread have now been unfortunately removed to conserve Dropbox space, leaving way for future projects but my final mix prior to mastering is still online. I ended up using my own drum tracks and finished it off with a few analog goodies.

Enjoy whats left of this discussion.

Topic Tags

Comments

djmukilteo Tue, 03/27/2012 - 16:16

JohnTodd, post: 387262 wrote: The extra are part of it! There are lyrics there...and they overlap other lyrics. See page 1 of the thread for the lyrics.

Please do not omit the extras.

THis was part of the challenge for me mixing it. 6 vocals overlapping 6 other vocals with different lyrics - and getting them all to be heard.

Have fun! :eek:

So the extras are on top of the chorus just as they are placed in the timeline?
The way that sounds to me makes both lyrics unrecognizable?
When I solo the extra short parts I can't understand the words being said?
I will check the lyrics post though..
Is there some technique or rationale to that...it seems confusing to me....not that it matters, I'll leave them in..I just don't understand how that is supposed to work or sound/blend and be comprehensible.
Something new for me to learn maybe.

JohnTodd Tue, 03/27/2012 - 16:30

djmukilteo, post: 387264 wrote: So the extras are on top of the chorus just as they are placed in the timeline?
The way that sounds to me makes both lyrics unrecognizable?
When I solo the extra short parts I can't understand the words being said?
I will check the lyrics post though..
Is there some technique or rationale to that...it seems confusing to me....not that it matters, I'll leave them in..I just don't understand how that is supposed to work or sound/blend and be comprehensible.
Something new for me to learn maybe.

Yes, they are laid upon the others. If all your tracks are syncing, then you should have a real short section in there where it overlaps extras with the BGVs.

Why?

In a word...it is art. I wrote it that way on purpose. That is the rationale. IOW, there ain't no good reason for it, it just flows and goes that way. It's only a Northern Song!*

This is also why I used a certain "special effect" on those extras. Lots of autotune to flatten them out, and "something else". I got it to work for better or worse - now let the Mix Gods wreak havoc upon it! BRUHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

*$20 imaginary dollars to the first person who can explain that joke!

djmukilteo Tue, 03/27/2012 - 17:22

JohnTodd, post: 387265 wrote: Yes, they are laid upon the others. If all your tracks are syncing, then you should have a real short section in there where it overlaps extras with the BGVs.
Why?
In a word...it is art. I wrote it that way on purpose. That is the rationale. IOW, there ain't no good reason for it, it just flows and goes that way. It's only a Northern Song!*

This is also why I used a certain "special effect" on those extras. Lots of autotune to flatten them out, and "something else". I got it to work for better or worse - now let the Mix Gods wreak havoc upon it! BRUHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

*$20 imaginary dollars to the first person who can explain that joke!

OK...that makes perfect sense and a great answer!..LOL
I actually expected that response!. I've had this happen with friends songs and it's apparent I'm not as artistically creative as others who think more OTB than myself...LOL.

I tend to hear and lean more toward stock approaches which I'm used to hearing from popular music I like and so those unexpected "artistic" parts just jump out at me.

But I think that's one of things that's so cool about doing this stuff yourself. You get to make the calls and get it the way you want it....and there's no confusion with what you want...you just do it!
Once you "get" the artistic intention...it's not a problem.
I certainly didn't want to make your song completely different or my interpretation so I hope you weren't offended with my question or my previous mix.

I don't have Autotune so I'll see if I can find something that will "sauce" up those chorus parts more the way you had them in your original and see how close I can get to your version....Of course it won't ever sound the way you did it, but it's still a fun experiment for me.
I need to listen to your MP3 more and that will help guide me along...
This whole idea of people doing remote online mixing would end up being very back and forth without you sitting there discussing it in realtime with all the nuances in a mix. I couldn't imagine doing that...food for thought I suppose!

I do hope we get more people in here to give it a try!

audiokid Tue, 03/27/2012 - 22:40

Yes, do your best, have fun and please ask questions and post your progress on how its coming along. Its a fun mix and a good challange.
I have posted some of my tips throughout this thread and I'm sure looking forward to others, please please! thumb

Don is right behind you and Remy is preparing.
We've been using Dropbox to post audio clips. Its high quality compared to SC. Its free too.

djmukilteo Wed, 03/28/2012 - 18:13

niclaus, post: 387287 wrote: I'd love to Play Around too, but i don't think i'll come Even close to what you guys will come up with, and also i'm not sure i have time to play Right now!
Anyway, good luck to you all, and have fun!!

Great thread anyway!!! Thanks John! Thanks audiokid!!

N.

Well if you have the time niclaus, it sure is a fun comparison. I have very meager equipment compared to what the rest have here (audiokid) but I have learned a lot on how to "listen" to what true high end analog summing and analog processing can do and then for me understanding some of the nuances of getting a good mix in general.
No ego's here, everybody is just very helpful!...so don't let that stop you.
The time thing is your only loss!

niclaus Wed, 03/28/2012 - 23:36

audiokid, post: 387308 wrote: Hi Niclaus,

love to have you with us. If you would like the tracks, I can send you the links?

That'll be great, if i don't find time, i'll keep them for later!!
Thanks!

A friend of mine talked to me about some tracks he recorded, maybe i'll ask him if he would mind sharing them here! His last tracks were not so great, but the song was!!!

djmukilteo, post: 387325 wrote: Well if you have the time niclaus, it sure is a fun comparison. I have very meager equipment compared to what the rest have here (audiokid) but I have learned a lot on how to "listen" to what true high end analog summing and analog processing can do and then for me understanding some of the nuances of getting a good mix in general.
No ego's here, everybody is just very helpful!...so don't let that stop you.
The time thing is your only loss!

You are correct sir! And it could give me an opportunity to test my new home setup instead of my work place (just moved in a new place, and haven't found Time to test it yet)

N.

djmukilteo Thu, 03/29/2012 - 15:54

[quote=audiokid, post: 387357]I tried the [[url=http://[/URL]="http://spl.info/ind…"]Stereo Vitalizer MK2-T[/]="http://spl.info/ind…"]Stereo Vitalizer MK2-T[/] plug-in, what do you think?

(Expired Link Removed)

EDIT: Files removed , onto another mix fest.

Just my humble opinion....I thought it sounded as good as previous versions.
This seemed very open, light airy and wide and I think I was hearing more depth, but that may have been just me.
The only thing that seemed different was the main vocal was more in your face and the rest of it was pushed further back which is where I got the depth feel to it.
What do you think it did to the mix?

hueseph Thu, 03/29/2012 - 16:54

Okay. First attempt. Forgive my butchery but that's what I can do in a couple of hours. There's something wrong with my gain staging. I don't know where it is but I'm hearing a lot of distortion that I don't want. Hopefully I will figure it out in the next little while.

(Expired Link Removed)

It might take a while to load. It's a wav file. I didn't want to butcher it further by compressing it to MP3.

Incidentally John, it's a very nice song, well played a recorded. I hear some little glitches here and there but I'm pretty sure it's something I'm doing on my end.

audiokid Thu, 03/29/2012 - 17:49

You sure have good ears Don.

Because the tracks lack a luster achived by higher end recording, I've been working hard from the get go to find a way to get more airy sparkle without ripping your face off with processing. Its the endless battle we all work towards, eh. And its so easy to go overboard and ruin a mix.
Yesterday I started thinking about exciters on this, which are ideal for adding extra sheen to dull or dark tracks or the master. IMHO, they can do terrible things to a song, usually most of the time, terrible. They are so easy to over-do.
But I thought, hmmm. So I added just a bit to this and I can hear it may have helped. They kill my hearing fast so the idea for me is to set things fast and then leave it. Then revisit it once my hearing has rested. Having a fresh set like you Don, is what I needed.

I think it did exactly what you heard.

hueseph Thu, 03/29/2012 - 20:59

I think, I'm getting there. Trying my best not to eq unless I absolutely need to. EQ always gets me into trouble. I think I figured out my gain issue. I'm still having problems with the solo guitar. There is definitely some distortion in the high end that I just can't get rid of. I think I was able to minimize it though.

Getting better I think. Please feel free to differ.

(Expired Link Removed)

hueseph Thu, 03/29/2012 - 21:56

JohnTodd, post: 387371 wrote: The guitar solo was recorded direct with the piezo.

Well, I kind of figured on that. I just heard something that is either there or happened when I imported that file. I'm not criticizing. I'm just venting my frustration. I suppose I could re-record the solo with my guitar? Just a thought. I don't want to step on toes.

All that being said, I just want to do the song justice or at the least hack with as little damage as possible. :tongue:

audiokid Thu, 03/29/2012 - 22:33

Cool, we're getting some action here!

I agree, intro is too long but IMO, John can deal with that later. smoke

Hue, as a reference for you, I used EQ anf HPF here

EDIT: Files removed , onto another mix fest.

You definitely need to use filters and EQ. Your mix is very bass heavy. Your monitors may not be producing low end well which is why your mix is heavy in the bass. My mix will sound really thin to you?

Hope that helps.

niclaus Fri, 03/30/2012 - 03:03

audiokid, post: 387357 wrote: I tried the [[url=http://[/URL]="http://spl.info/ind…"]Stereo Vitalizer MK2-T[/]="http://spl.info/ind…"]Stereo Vitalizer MK2-T[/] plug-in, what do you think?

EDIT: Files removed , onto another mix fest.

It's a little bit too much for my taste.
It works well on the guitar, but as soon as the vocals comes in, i found it a little harsh... I liked Master1 better...
Just my 2 cents.

Anyway, the mix is great. Good work.

N.

hueseph Fri, 03/30/2012 - 05:18

JohnTodd, post: 387381 wrote: Please don't re-record parts. This is a mixing exercise.

Besides, I really want to see what can be done with this by people who know about "stuff". :smile:

More later...

Cool man. I won't mess with it beyond what you'd like. I do really appreciate you letting us do this.

audiokid Fri, 03/30/2012 - 09:14

niclaus, post: 387380 wrote: It's a little bit too much for my taste.
It works well on the guitar, but as soon as the vocals comes in, i found it a little harsh... I liked Master1 better...
Just my 2 cents.

Anyway, the mix is great. Good work.

N.

Thanks for chiming in!

I agree, after my ears tamed down and I re-listened to it, I didn't like the effect either and how it killed the mids. I tried all day yesterday and couldn't find a spot that satisfied me. I like the sheen effect but you can get that from a nice EQ.

Have you tired the hardware version, the tube? http://spl.info/hardware/eqs-vitalizerr/tube-vitalizerr/kurzinfo.html That might be better. Plug-ins are hit and miss for me.

For guitars, what app? Maybe metal. This might work for Johns Electric tracks here.

audiokid Fri, 03/30/2012 - 09:42

JohnTodd, post: 387381 wrote: Please don't re-record parts. This is a mixing exercise.

Besides, I really want to see what can be done with this by people who know about "stuff". :smile:

More later...

Exactly.

Another reason why I did the first mix and posted it, so it was clear it can be done without re-doing parts. I was hoping John would open this up for us! and its turning into a really good experiment.

NOTE: This is the start to an interesting mixing contest planned.
I like the idea of using project studio tracks like this because they are a REAL challenge! This song makes you work hard.

There is a lot of talk on how gear doesn't matter, how average tracks can be mixed well by someone that knows what they are doing. How low end gear will work if you know what you are doing. How OTB vs ITB is no better today, How important monitors and room acoustics are and so on... now is our chance to learn something along side others while sharing questions and processes.

Super learning process happening here. thumb

Get prepared. Keep working it.

hueseph Fri, 03/30/2012 - 12:02

There's definitely some. Challenges there but overall I think John did a decent job on the recording. There's definitely some stuff that I would have done way different but that's what poses the challenge.

I can't help but think this would be a lot simpler and the results more varied if it were an electronic or hip hop project.

djmukilteo Fri, 03/30/2012 - 12:55

audiokid, post: 387375 wrote: Cool, we're getting some action here!

I agree, intro is too long but IMO, John can deal with that later. smoke

(Expired Link Removed)
You definitely need to use filters and EQ. Your mix is very bass heavy. Your monitors may not be producing low end well which is why your mix is heavy in the bass. My mix will sound really thin to you?

Hope that helps.

BT: I get an Error 403 on this DB link!?
I agree with the intro comments, John actually faded that in on his original.
I didn't want to change anything so I just left everything as is and tried to get it all in there the best I could.
Huesph's mix to my ears was good...the thick kick though seemed too much and detracted from the bass line and rest of the mix.

There are parts in this song that build and then release but they overlap like the main vocal and it's very hard to keep everything forward when they change. I think BT did a really good job of getting some of those right, but I noticed he faded parts of the chorus lines out in order to recover those main lines..(clever). The guitar solo is another spot where that happens and it's hard to get the first solo riff to break through as the chorus rises and fades...I'm sure someone could do an automation thing on those spots to make them fit together nicely, without getting lost.

These chorus parts with the 6 "Extra" vocals were sure hard for me to get right. To my ear they conflict, but that's something John was looking for so I did the best I could.
I'm still curious as to how that is supposed to work?

There were a couple vocal lines during the chorus that have a "puff/pop" on the P's, but I couldn't figure out how to fix or minimize them after the fact (I just don't know how).

BT: The last mix you did with the "Nail" I thought is still the best mix so far.
The Vitalizer one was nice and wide and 3D but I also thought it sounded a little "thinner". Which is why I think I still like the Nail version best.

Huesph: What are you using in this mix off?...ITB, OTB?

Mine is all ITB Cubase...and I don't have a very good listening space and my monitors are pretty light weight (Rokit 5). So I don't expect my mix or abilities to ever come close to what BT has been able to achieve!
As far as ITB vs OTB unless someone can come in here with an ITB mix that blows the doors off BT's summing, I think OTB using ITB "tape deck" and editing (hybrid) is the really smart approach.
But then I think that is already a well decided and thought out approach.
It really comes down to the costs between the two setups.
Want to hear more mixes!!...and I'm not tired of listening to the song yet...I am tired of trying to mix it though!...LOL

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