I am 18 years old with self taught knowledge of multitrack recording. Is the Recording Connection a good way to introduce me to the next step in music producing/engineering?
http://www.recordin… The Recording Connection | Audio Engineering and Music Producing School[/]="http://www.recordin… The Recording Connection | Audio Engineering and Music Producing School[/]
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MadMax, post: 373841 wrote: Tell ya what... you give me $5000, a
MadMax, post: 373841 wrote: Tell ya what... you give me $5000, and you can come hang in a real studio for 6 months, and I'll create a nice certificate for ya... and you'll see what it's like to work in the REAL world of recording.
too bad I'll be living in San Diego. I just want somebody who really knows the recording game to train me
OK, here's the deal... and it's not like I'm worried about you o
OK, here's the deal... and it's not like I'm worried about you or anyone becoming my competition... but, leave this industry alone. Run as far away from it as you can... as fast as you can!
There isn't any real income to be had. The hours suck and people will certainly not respect you enough to pay you what you're worth in the long run.
Maybe as a musician you can make it, but as a recording engineer... you better love ramen noodles and peanut butter.
There's folks out there who steal plug-ins and use cracked software that will record artists for damn near nothing, because they don't do this for a living and have no morals or ethics. You can't compete with that, and make a living.
I agree with Thomas, get a four year degree in something. Maybe make recording technology a minor, but get a degree in a really viable industry, like electronics engineering or computer science. Hell, get a degree in accounting and do the books for what few studios will still be around in 4 years. But do yourself a favor and forget the music industry.
Problem with being able to do everything alone: You'd be very l
Problem with being able to do everything alone: You'd be very lucky to get passed go, alone. If you don't include people, you have a harder time getting anywhere. People that you include in your circle help create the buzz just like an audience does for an artist. This business is run by people that control who gets in, but that doesn't mean you won't be happy or unsuccessful with little help. Just remember people are attracted to money and artist that make people money. Its all about making money and building a business around people that are able to work together, over and over and over. The key is finding the right people.
I share MadMax's POV. Sad but true.
Even with complete creative control and an album full of groundb
Even with complete creative control and an album full of groundbreaking songs immaculately recorded - the music industry can still find thousands of other ways to screw you over.
That said, I'd say do these things on your own and master the craft because you love it.
Do the recording (work), build a following (harder work), get air-play (harder still).
And to the original question: If you have an aptitude for the work - you'll learn more interning, or being an assistant, in a working studio than a recording school in my opinion.
Mattmaymatt, post: 373854 wrote: I am a musician and I am in a b
Mattmaymatt, post: 373854 wrote: I am a musician and I am in a band. I want to become a producer so we can always record ourselves without getting others involved
Just to reiterate what audiokid and dvd alluded to...
Just like a lawyer who represents himself in court has a fool for a client, the same holds true for most musicians who self produce. Not all, just most.
Sure, you might save money, but that's about all you'll save.
It takes a pretty large, dedicated, hard working team of individuals to take a band to regional status, much less to a national, or international level.
Producing is not as easy as you think, either. In the big picture, it really is a specialized career to those who are successful at it. So, if you're producing, how are you going to have time to practice and perform? You can pretty much only do one or the other... which is why self production rarely works... or works with rarely successful results.
The craft of engineering is also another full time career choice, to actually be successful. Again, how can you do two full time career's?
So, then you take playing, production and engineering and try to roll them into one career... I can assure you that the number of people who are indeed talented, and relentless enough in their pursuit of artistic expression to wear all those hats, can be numbered in less than 100 people to make it to national level. Probably a larger number make it to regional status... but when there are millions of people in the music business trying to make a living at this, even if it was 10,000 - you're looking at something like 200,000:1 odds of making a living.
It sure makes it hard to have a family, house, feed and clothe them on those kinds of odds.
Mattmaymatt, post: 373854 wrote: I heard you can get screwed pretty easily in the music industry,
Uhhh.... no, not true... the correct statement is:
You know you will get screwed REAL bad in the music industry... time and time again... and it won't EVER change.
I clearly do not share the view that there is no money, respect
I clearly do not share the view that there is no money, respect or dignity to be had for engineers in this business. This is definitely not the "go to school, get a job, work 35 years, retire" type job but there is more money on the whole being spent into recording albums then ever. It is spread out differently but if you look at the collective dollars being spent on gear from bottom to top, music lessons, recording lessons and all the other factors that are music I think you would find that the money is still being spent and then some. You just need to be smart enough to tap into the resource. Just like the loudness wars the people who haven't figured out how to make things loud tend to complain about how loudness is destroying our industry. The people that haven't figured out how to tap into a money stream tend to complain that there is no money in the music business. The money is all around your feet you just need to be smart enough to kneel down and pick it up.
If decide you are going to try to earn a living by the old studio model I agree you might as well take your money and start a nice big fire. You'll need to be passionate about business just like you are music. Matching your sets of skills with the needs of those around you and then charging a fair amount. Todays picture of a successful studio is not one thing. It is multiple sources of income. In my studio we mix and record from 6.am-2p.m, have private music lessons from 2p.m. until 9p.m. and then the tracking the late night type musicians begins again at 9 p.m. until whenever. There is also tracking on weekends. I have 10 employees and yeah, I work a lot of hours but I do a lot of what I love. I love teaching even though I don't do that much of it anymore. I mostly teach working professional musicians, teach business to people that want to learn how to make a career out of music, prep people for recording and some special cases. The rest of the time I am mixing the clients I track plus I have 2 assistants that track as well and then I mix their projects. I basically have found a way to keep this building earning money 24/7. Don't forget about administration, taxes, book keeping and the boring stuff. You must be passionate about this as well.
There is no way that in a single post I can show you how to build a career in music but I can tell you with out a doubt that the first step is aligning what you believe about money with what successful people believe about money. In every desolate environment there are always success stories. That is no accident.
Paul999, post: 381307 wrote: I clearly do not share the view tha
Paul999, post: 381307 wrote: I clearly do not share the view that there is no money, respect or dignity to be had for engineers in this business. This is definitely not the "go to school, get a job, work 35 years, retire" type job but there is more money on the whole being spent into recording albums then ever. It is spread out differently but if you look at the collective dollars being spent on gear from bottom to top, music lessons, recording lessons and all the other factors that are music I think you would find that the money is still being spent and then some. You just need to be smart enough to tap into the resource. Just like the loudness wars the people who haven't figured out how to make things loud tend to complain about how loudness is destroying our industry. The people that haven't figured out how to tap into a money stream tend to complain that there is no money in the music business. The money is all around your feet you just need to be smart enough to kneel down and pick it up.
If decide you are going to try to earn a living by the old studio model I agree you might as well take your money and start a nice big fire. You'll need to be passionate about business just like you are music. Matching your sets of skills with the needs of those around you and then charging a fair amount. Today's picture of a successful studio is not one thing. It is multiple sources of income. In my studio we mix and record from 6.am-2p.m, have private music lessons from 2p.m. until 9p.m. and then the tracking the late night type musicians begins again at 9 p.m. until whenever. There is also tracking on weekends. I have 10 employees and yeah, I work a lot of hours but I do a lot of what I love. I love teaching even though I don't do that much of it anymore. I mostly teach working professional musicians, teach business to people that want to learn how to make a career out of music, prep people for recording and some special cases. The rest of the time I am mixing the clients I track plus I have 2 assistants that track as well and then I mix their projects. I basically have found a way to keep this building earning money 24/7. Don't forget about administration, taxes, book keeping and the boring stuff. You must be passionate about this as well.
There is no way that in a single post I can show you how to build a career in music but I can tell you with out a doubt that the first step is aligning what you believe about money with what successful people believe about money. In every desolate environment there are always success stories. That is no accident.
That is so true..
Paul999, post: 381307 wrote: ... but there is more money on the
Paul999, post: 381307 wrote: ... but there is more money on the whole being spent into recording albums then ever. It is spread out differently but if you look at the collective dollars being spent on gear from bottom to top, music lessons, recording lessons and all the other factors that are music I think you would find that the money is still being spent and then some....
I'm not sure this is quite true, but if you expand the world from the "music industry" to the "entertainment industry" (including, film, TV, video games, etc.) this is very true. There is a lot of money out there. It is being distributed in very different ways than it was 30 years ago, but it's out there to be earned.
I have been audio multi tasking for years. We expanded our busi
I have been audio multi tasking for years. We expanded our business a couple of years ago into the video arena and never looked back. We now do mastering, on location audio recording, audio restoration of tapes and discs and video production. It is hard to be ONLY a one task shop anymore. There are still way too many people who are doing bad recordings and mastering for next to nothing and even though they may not realize it they are really hurting legitimate recording businesses because they do such terrible work that musicians say "hey I could do that better" and go out and purchase their own equipment and start doing their own recordings. This is then repeated Ad infinitum as the new kids on the block open their "personal" studios to other musicians and so it goes.
No one that I know of around here is getting rich off the audio business. Many professional studios have closed their doors due to the lack of business and "competition" from the basement studios. One studio here has closed all of their other rooms and only has the one room going and is renting out the space to other producers and engineers. Another studio that just went under has moved to the suburbs and is cohabiting with a video production company. Times are tough but you have to change your way of thinking and acting if you are to survive. Owning a recording studio was never a 9 to 5 job and weekends were always set aside for doing work when other people had time off. What has changed is that you have to reinvent your studio and your ways of doing business while staying true to your core values like quality and good service.
It is IMHO not going to get any easier any time soon and if anyone thinks that just by going to college or an audio trade school they are going to "make it" they are sorely misinformed. When I started into the pro audio business 40 years ago it was a much different landscape and I knew almost every other "audio engineer" by their first name in this geographical area. Today there are literally hundreds of people in this area that call themselves "audio engineers" but aren't.
It all boils down to do what you love, do it well and you will always have clients.
MTCW and YMMV
Multiple avenues of profit are crucial for music businesses. Wh
Multiple avenues of profit are crucial for music businesses. When I am helping a person develop their career plan I usually get them to write down all the things they feel are considered "working in music". Some feel sales is music some don't, some feel teaching is music some don't. The more ways you can make money the more secure you'll be and the more likely that you can find a niche in your area.
Paul999, post: 381400 wrote: Multiple avenues of profit are cruc
Paul999, post: 381400 wrote: Multiple avenues of profit are crucial for music businesses. When I am helping a person develop their career plan I usually get them to write down all the things they feel are considered "working in music". Some feel sales is music some don't, some feel teaching is music some don't. The more ways you can make money the more secure you'll be and the more likely that you can find a niche in your area.
Basically adapt or die. Very true it seems.
Ryan Edward, post: 382386 wrote: I have been reading quite a few
Ryan Edward, post: 382386 wrote: I have been reading quite a few negative posts regarding Full Sail on some forums. Is there any validity to this negativity.
I'll say this as an education professional: any negative comments about any educational institution are worth reading if you read critically. A negative comment means that someone (a student, an employer, a parent paying tuition) didn't get what they expected out of that institution. There can be a lot of reasons for that, and they may not be the fault of the institution. But you need to figure out if the same problems will apply to your situation.
While I don't have any first hand knowledge about Full Sail, I have to say that I'm skeptical about the "trade school" model for audio - especially if the course is long and/or expensive. Technology has been evolving pretty rapidly (though we may be at a plateau now) and the entertainment business is changing even more rapidly. This is not an industry like plumbing or HVAC where technology and business models evolve slowly.
But whatever program you look at, you have to make sure it works well with your skill set, your personality, your work habits, your expectations, your financial situation, and your connections.
BobRogers, post: 382391 wrote: Technology has been evolving p
BobRogers, post: 382391 wrote:
Technology has been evolving pretty rapidly (though we may be at a plateau now) and the entertainment business is changing even more rapidly. This is not an industry like plumbing or HVAC where technology and business models evolve slowly.
Bob, all well said and I am especially interested why you think we may be at a plateau now?
audiokid, post: 382444 wrote: Bob, all well said and I am especi
audiokid, post: 382444 wrote: Bob, all well said and I am especially interested why you think we may be at a plateau now?
I'm thinking of this from an educational perspective. If you took a course today that was five years "out of date" - using software and hardware from 2007, you'd be in pretty good shape to use everything you had learned in the studio today. What would you not know about? (That's not a rhetorical question. There must be something, but I can't think of it.) Compare that to earlier five-year periods in the 80's and 90's when there were major technical innovations - when you'd be learning to do a lot of things that are automated today or missing important information.
On a more general level, I think that we are at an innovative plateau in the sense that we are building bigger, faster, cheaper, more robust versions of the systems that we build ten years ago. Not to be sneezed at, but a plateau in terms of fundamentally new products.
bart_R, post: 382910 wrote: Why are Full Sail so expensive? Is t
bart_R, post: 382910 wrote: Why are Full Sail so expensive? Is there program that good?
I have a degree from Full Sail. I can say without fear of contradiction that I was a damn fool. Full Sail is a degree mill. I earned my straight-A's; most do not and are passed through. So even though I know what I am doing, I can't get a job based on that degree because of so many other graduates who are incompetent. Save your money!
So they promise that your instructors will be seasoned industry pros? Bullshit. I had two instructors who were "pros", the others were "hobbyists" were managed to get themselves hired. Some of us student knew more than they did. They have a lot of fancy gear, no doubt about that. But they lack the ability to teach ot to you, for the most part. And I feel sorry for the instructors there who actually DO know their thing, because they are surrounded by drug addicts and losers as colleagues.
No kidding. Teachers come to school intoxicated sometimes. Not all, obviously, but enough.
Anyway, I got pissed when the new Pro-Tools came in. Turns out my classes' job was TO WRITE THE TUTORIALS FOR THE OTHER CLASSES. Seems the instructors didn't know shit about it. Gee, never got paid for writing the tutorials. Never got a discount on tuition for it. Did have to pay for the class. Taking the class alone would be billed at $3500.
So, in a nuthshell, Full Sail is a money machine, and that is all. Just go to a community college and learn the fundamentals. If you can work one DAW you can learn to work them all. After all, they do the same things, eh? Get a degree in SOMETHING ELSE that society needs. They don't need any more Sir George Martins or Stanley Kubricks or Tommy Tallericos. They do need software engineers and web developers.
I am also an educator and have heard and seen good and bad thing
I am also an educator and have heard and seen good and bad things about the trade schools. The idea behind a trade school is to train someone to be able to jump into a job. The idea behind a college/University is to train someone how to learn so they can keep learning while they build their career. The trade school model is really a joke in this industry since there aren't jobs available for graduates. The students who graduate from the University where I teach begin building their careers before and after they leave school using the skills they learn from me in audio and music production as well as what they learned from music theory and english and biology and marketing. I'd say that 1/3 to half of students graduating from programs like where I teach don't end up working in the audio or music industry in the long run. They use the ability to continue learning that they gained from college to build a successful career in something else.
So I'm basically saying that you should stay away from the trade schools and get a well rounded education at a university focusing in the field that interests you (in this case audio). Then be prepared to diversify and use every bit of knowledge and experience that you have ever gained in building a career.
theDAWstudio, post: 383159 wrote: I am also an educator and have
theDAWstudio, post: 383159 wrote: I am also an educator and have heard and seen good and bad things about the trade schools. The idea behind a trade school is to train someone to be able to jump into a job. The idea behind a college/University is to train someone how to learn so they can keep learning while they build their career. The trade school model is really a joke in this industry since there aren't jobs available for graduates. The students who graduate from the University where I teach begin building their careers before and after they leave school using the skills they learn from me in audio and music production as well as what they learned from music theory and english and biology and marketing. I'd say that 1/3 to half of students graduating from programs like where I teach don't end up working in the audio or music industry in the long run. They use the ability to continue learning that they gained from college to build a successful career in something else.
So I'm basically saying that you should stay away from the trade schools and get a well rounded education at a university focusing in the field that interests you (in this case audio). Then be prepared to diversify and use every bit of knowledge and experience that you have ever gained in building a career.
This exactly the same conversation and reply that my oldest friend (teaches at MTSU.) had. Trade schools for the construction and mechanical related fields are quite good, but for the most part, all others are pretty useless for the majority of the attendees.
But also as a full disclosure, I do personally know one Full Sail graduate who dug in hard, and after many exhausting years of hard work and perseverance, has earned 3 Grammy's and is one of the more sought after mixers in LA. But he is DEFINITELY one of the exceptions, rather than the rule.
MadMax, post: 383215 wrote: This exactly the same conversation a
MadMax, post: 383215 wrote: This exactly the same conversation and reply that my oldest friend (teaches at MTSU.) had. Trade schools for the construction and mechanical related fields are quite good, but for the most part, all others are pretty useless for the majority of the attendees.
But also as a full disclosure, I do personally know one Full Sail graduate who dug in hard, and after many exhausting years of hard work and perseverance, has earned 3 Grammy's and is one of the more sought after mixers in LA. But he is DEFINITELY one of the exceptions, rather than the rule.
I'd like to add that this industry has no requirement for any type of degree to succeed. The engineer that I was an assistant to when we won a Grammy didn't have any official recording education. Whether you learn the fundamentals at a trade school, University, Junior College, digging into the many great books out there or even as a fly on the wall at a professional studio you can work hard and become a success. Don't think that any of these places are a complete waste of money and time. If you learn something and gained some experience, it could be considered invaluable. But is it worth the money and the gamble? That is the question you have to ask yourself. I only hope that this discussion can help people make a more informed decision.
They don't care were you got it, just that you have it. bart_R,
They don't care were you got it, just that you have it.
bart_R, post: 383260 wrote: You say that not having a degree is no handicap in the music business, surely doing training within a studio has its merits?
That is exactly what I am saying. Most of the older people in the industry had no formal education and started as interns or janitors knowing barely anything to nothing about audio. They slowly learned by being a fly on the wall in sessions and checking things out after everybody left. They eventually learned the craft and got some break when the engineer was sick or something. The difference now is that studios expect their interns to already know how to do everything so either find a studio that doesn't expect that or find a way to learn the information. It's all about having the skill to do the work. They don't care were you got it, just that you have it.
HillBicks, post: 383153 wrote: I have a degree from Full Sail.
HillBicks, post: 383153 wrote: I have a degree from Full Sail. I can say without fear of contradiction that I was a damn fool. Full Sail is a degree mill. I earned my straight-A's; most do not and are passed through. So even though I know what I am doing, I can't get a job based on that degree because of so many other graduates who are incompetent. Save your money!
So they promise that your instructors will be seasoned industry pros? Bullshit. I had two instructors who were "pros", the others were "hobbyists" were managed to get themselves hired. Some of us student knew more than they did. They have a lot of fancy gear, no doubt about that. But they lack the ability to teach ot to you, for the most part. And I feel sorry for the instructors there who actually DO know their thing, because they are surrounded by drug addicts and losers as colleagues.
No kidding. Teachers come to school intoxicated sometimes. Not all, obviously, but enough.
Anyway, I got pissed when the new Pro-Tools came in. Turns out my classes' job was TO WRITE THE TUTORIALS FOR THE OTHER CLASSES. Seems the instructors didn't know shit about it. Gee, never got paid for writing the tutorials. Never got a discount on tuition for it. Did have to pay for the class. Taking the class alone would be billed at $3500.
So, in a nuthshell, Full Sail is a money machine, and that is all. Just go to a community college and learn the fundamentals. If you can work one DAW you can learn to work them all. After all, they do the same things, eh? Get a degree in SOMETHING ELSE that society needs. They don't need any more Sir George Martins or Stanley Kubricks or Tommy Tallericos. They do need software engineers and web developers.
That is so bad, sorry you got stung by them. I can bet you feel cheated, earning your marks and knowing that most others did not.
If you want a degree in recording a good four year college or un
If you want a degree in recording a good four year college or university would be a good choice for you. Not only will you get a degree in recording but you can take other courses in business and advertising that would help you open up your own studio if you so desire. If things get tougher in the economy you will also have other skills to fall back on and a degree from a good college or university is always a door opener. If you just want to intern then find a studio who will take you on for an internship paid or unpaid.
Schools like the place you asked about are in it mostly for the money.
In this economy I personally would not try and open my own studio. NO ONE is making any real money in audio today and the costs of running a studio in terms of time and money can be considerable. Most people are recording themselves and if they do go into a studio for some reason they want the studio owner to charge them studio rates that would not keep you in business. They call it the MUSIC BUSINESS for a reason and today most studios are having to scrape the bottom of the barrel just to keep the doors open. Not a good time for recording studio owners.
Best of luck and let us know what you finally decide.