FINALLY!! The saga begins

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:00 pm

MadMax wrote:

knightfly wrote:

Kinda makes ya wonder if offcenter in the middle of the ceiling would be a good spot for the sub, huh??!? Confused

At least the baffle would be big enough... Steve

OK, I'll bite... Why not?

If I were to go 2x6 for the ceiling joists in the region of the sub and put an access panel somewhere in the control room ceiling. Front mount the driver...

Whatdayathink?

Max

If you soffit mount ( mains or sub ) you'll excite the modes more efficiently. Genelec indeed recommend lots of rear wall standing wave absorption to counteract this.

If you haven't read them yet, these are the best soffit mounting resource on the Net.....

http://www.genelec.com/support/flushmount.php

http://www.genelec.com/support/faq/faq20.php

http://www.genelec.com/support/faq/faq19.php

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:05 pm

MadMax wrote:

....

One question that keeps knawing at me is whether I've allowed enough space between the CR and tracking room to do a proper job of soffit mounting.

Thanx again!
Max

The plans you posted above don't show enough space for soffit mounting.

You'll need to adjust your plans to accomodate the soffits. Worth it though Smile

Read the Genelec soffit papers I linked above before doing so

And also see my studio build diary of course. You'll need to make your soffit wall as solid and heavy as possible.

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:07 pm

Paul, that first link isn't working.

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:16 pm

David French wrote:

Paul, that first link isn't working.

Cheers for that, they must have revised their publications. I need to check and update as I have those links stored. Smile

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:21 pm

David French wrote:

Paul, that first link isn't working.

OK sussed it. They've simply replaced 'soffit' with 'flushmount' in the link. Same article! I edited the link in my above post

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:56 pm

Paul, about the only thing you've said recently that hasn't worked for me is the "bobblehead" approach - in my experience having monitors high (although as you said may NOT cause problems, but FIX some) causes me to have to look DOWN to adjust, UP to listen, DOWN to adjust, ad nauseum; this has been true for me regardless of whether mixing on a virtual mixer/CRT or on an actual console. I prefer to just close my eyes when I don't want to be distracted by all the blinkenlites/pretty graphics.

I 110% agree about using geometry before you even start though - and I would even consider mounting monitors high and tilted if it solved an otherwise difficult/impossible reflection problem; it's just that my freakin' 60-year-old body doesn't want to stay as young as my (sometimes immature) mind, so things that require unnecessary movement of my neck (away from where it naturally wants to be) tend to piss me off Laughing

Another aspect I think makes a difference in CR layout is whether this will be a "personal space" or a "for hire" space - I've done a couple of personal spaces that were incredibly efficient for my way of working, but wouldn't get one repeat customer as a "for hire" space - both were what I call the "jet cockpit" approach, where everything I might need to fondle during a composing/recording/mixing session was within reach of a single chair; just turn a different way and it's at hand.

Downside is, put a second person in the room and it's shiite...

From past experience, if you can actually get ergonomics/aesthetics/acoustics to live peacefully in the same room, better stock up on Viagra; because those "72 virgins" are just around the corner... Laughing

Steve

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:39 pm

knightfly wrote:

Paul, about the only thing you've said recently that hasn't worked for me is the "bobblehead" approach - in my experience having monitors high (although as you said may NOT cause problems, but FIX some) causes me to have to look DOWN to adjust, UP to listen, DOWN to adjust, ad nauseum; this has been true for me regardless of whether mixing on a virtual mixer/CRT or on an actual console. I prefer to just close my eyes when I don't want to be distracted by all the blinkenlites/pretty graphics.

I 110% agree about using geometry before you even start though - and I would even consider mounting monitors high and tilted if it solved an otherwise difficult/impossible reflection problem; it's just that my freakin' 60-year-old body doesn't want to stay as young as my (sometimes immature) mind, so things that require unnecessary movement of my neck (away from where it naturally wants to be) tend to piss me off Laughing

Bear in mind my monitors are only about a foot higher than they would have been if set vertically at ear height. So There's really no neck ache from this. My cin only moves an inch at the most when looking upwards a bit.

IIRC my upper soffit wall angles down at 10 degrees.

Quote:

Another aspect I think makes a difference in CR layout is whether this will be a "personal space" or a "for hire" space - I've done a couple of personal spaces that were incredibly efficient for my way of working, but wouldn't get one repeat customer as a "for hire" space - both were what I call the "jet cockpit" approach, where everything I might need to fondle during a composing/recording/mixing session was within reach of a single chair; just turn a different way and it's at hand.

Downside is, put a second person in the room and it's shiite...

From past experience, if you can actually get ergonomics/aesthetics/acoustics to live peacefully in the same room, better stock up on Viagra; because those "72 virgins" are just around the corner... Laughing

Steve

Aw man, getting the "ergonomics/aesthetics/acoustics" thing to a reasonable compromise was actually the HARDEST Design issue for my studio. I know exactly where you're coming from.

My studio design in autocad started off with nothing more than 2 speakers and a small sphere to represent my head. EVERYTHING in the room was designed around that.

If I had ONE CENT for every time I adjusted the position of everything to tweak things I'd be bill gates. I also killed a billion brain cells thinking about it.

The layout isn't perfect, so I won't get 72, but I reckon I've earned at least 69 virgins Smile

Although I'd much rather have 69 experienced bi-nymphs than virgins Smile

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:02 am

Right; virgins are 'way over-rated...

I've been slowly working on a desk for the next space (among other things) for over a year now, and STILL have some doubts as to whether it'll be as cool as I hoped. Trying to get LCR nearfields, 3 19" LCD's, digital AND analog mixer, 'puter keys/mouse, and at least one workstation keyboard incorporated into one desk with no early reflection problems, no neck pain, and no interference with soffited mains, system easily switchable between stereo and 5.1.... pedestals either side of the desk (under it) splayed in, tilted back, and hinged at the bottom so they tilt out and lay face down for wiring -

AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH Confused

"Hello; My name is Steve, and I'm a pain-a-holic..."

(Hello, Steve!!!! Laughing

)

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:50 am

I've GOTTA get this studio built... my friggin' day gig is killin' me. They got my recommendation on a new server and 100 laptops... then proceed to ignore absolutely EVERTHING I told them needed to happen to make the new system/workflow work... Then today, this one rat-bastard SOB sends a &@$@^%$(!*&%^*@&E! forklift operator/maintenance guy in to learn how the server is set-up... just in case I need to have some help. Bullshit, the dude was implying HE's going to be my boss?!?. yeah, right... Stupid managers shouldn't breed... much less breath. Confused

At any rate... the build is the important thing...

Paul, I'm reworking the drawings to put enough space for monitors to be soffit mounted... If I allow 24 inches, would that generally allow enough room for the sofft enclosue and leave enough space to isolate the sound between the CR and tracking room/iso booth?

I've been checking prices of the proposed sand filled wood joist floor construction... The cost of concrete vs sand filled all wood construction has flipped. Concrete is currently WAY cheaper. No surprise, huh? So...

Since I have 1200 sq ft of 3/4" T&G cherry flooring that I was planning to use for just that, flooring, what is the best practice for securing it to the concrete floor? ...or do I want to revisit a concrete floor alone?

I could take that 1200 sq ft and mix it with the approx. 1200 sq ft of cedar, approx. 3000 sq ft of oak and 300 sq ft of maple I have for the walls and furniture. (I'll try to get a few pix of all the lumber up this weekend.)

To stir up the mix a bit further... If I decide to mount all that lumber on the majority of the walls, could I not reduce the number of layers of gypsum from 4 layers to 3 or maybe even 2? (All of the lumber is rough sawn 4/4, 5/4 and a few pieces of 12/4.)

"Hello; My name is Max, and I'm a pain-a-holic... too!"

"I can't help myself... it's genetic... I think."

Max

BTW, Steve's right, virgin's ARE over-rated, true... but if there were 72 of em', it might be!! Hell, I don't see any reason to even complain about 2... Twisted Evil

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:07 am

COOL update!!!

The guy who's helping me do some landscaping stopped by to ask me if I wanted an 18 foot long, 24 inch diameter black walnut log! DUH!!!!!

I asked him if he could cut it in half and drop it by. Should be here Tuesday. He's also got three more 12 foot logs of maple and two white oak logs about 10 foot long!!!

The studio finish just got stepped up a notch! FRIGGIN' WALNUT!!!! YES!

I was going to upload a few pix of the existing lumber piles, but my web hosting co updated the software and changed the control panel w/o any notification! This is the third time in about 6 months the've done this crap w/o notification. UGGGGH!

So, I'm thinking of looking for a new web host...

Later,
Max

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:55 am

The walnut is here!!! The guy even brought me a LOT of the larger branches. WAY COOL! I'm going to let it sit for about two weeks before the guy with the portable sawmill comes out to rough saw it.

Picked up TurboCAD for Mac... If anyone is really keeping up with this thread, I have a confession to make... I've been a bit of an anti-CAD snob. Primarily because AutoCAD is soooo expensive and the learning curve is a bitch.

Not so with TurboCAD!!! The initial curve is steep, but it really is worth the effort. (I started working on REAL drawings in about 4 hours!) The cost, new in the local Apple store was only $98.00!!

I now realize that I would not be able to complete this studio without a CAD program. If you are thinking about doing your own studio build without a CAD program... DON'T DO IT!! Get a copy of TurboCAD! It's cheap, it's accurate, it's cheap, it scales, it's cheap, it dimensions, it's cheap, you can do layers, and best of all... IT'S CHEAP! (Oh, I said that already, right?)

My copy of "Recording Studio Design" by Philip Newell arrived this week as well. In the first skim through, it really seems like he's into using "5kg/m2 plastisized deadsheet" material sandwiched between two layers of gypsum.

Here's a couple of products I've found:
NoiseStop Barrier Shield
SBM5 from Soundproofing Mat Co - UK

Soooo, is the Auralex Sheetbock product, here in the US, the equivilent? The online calculators I've found seem to concur that it is.

Any thoughts or comments on what Newell professes with the use of gypsum::deadsheet::gypsum::stud

Thanx,
Max

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:16 am

Paul Woodlock wrote:

And also see my studio build diary of course. You'll need to make your soffit wall as solid and heavy as possible.

Paul, (et al...)

I'll try to get drawings up soon.

Thinking about these options...
1. Concrete piling: 24"x24"x??? I'd sink it 12" into the ground on a 30"x30"x18" thick footer. Definitely the most difficult method. I'll have to be damn sure where they go. Once in, there ain't no fixing it.

2. A similar construction to yours.

3. (this is a bit trying to describe) 2 pilings of 4-3"x24"x??? high, rebar reinforced concrete[edit] slabs. Fill the resulting box with sand. Cap it with a 1" thick concrete slab. Topped with a high durometer neoprene sheet.

In method 3, I'll have to make the foundation slab at least 8" thick under the soffit wall. Since this is a one time shot, I am considering just making the entire control room pad 8" thick. It adds significantly to the cost of the room/studio, but it might be worth it.

Comments?

Max

edited in the word "concrete"

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:29 am

Still no chance to get to the Health Dept. (*&^!#$)&*^!@@)

In the meantime...

Got started on digging a french drain trench on the upper side of the building. Putting the french drain in should ease most of the hydro pressure from the water coming off the hill above the studio - From the house down through the firepit to the studio is about a 125' run and a 7-8' drop. The other side of the studio is about a 300' run down to the bottom of the hill - about another 20' drop.

The water pressure once it gets to the studio, forces enough moisture below the studio's foundation to make the inside fairly moist/humid on it's way down the hill.

I've been laying in supplies:
7/16" OSB - still need about 20 more sheets before I can get started on the exterior.
2x4's - Need about 50 more 12 footers. I'm going to sister them to the existing 2x4 truss so as to hang the panel absorbers in the empty roof cavity.

I still need to make a decision as to using the blue rigid or conventional fiberboard over the OSB. For ease of installation, the blue rigid. For cost, conventional fiberboard.

That's about it for now.

Max

Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 3:40 am

Well, the French Drain is about done!!

I took the trench up to the actual foundation. I'm glad I had the guy take it all the way down to the footers as well.

We found a couple (4) of places where the block work had cracked under the pressure of the water coming down off the hill. Got those cracks sealed and all should be water tight now that I sealed the foundation wall up to six inches above grade. (Pix coming this weekend.)

Looks like I'm going to need to go all the way around the building and seal the whole foundation... as it wasn't done during construction... damn.

When the initial trench was dug, the top layer of "soil" was nothing but rock hard clay. (About 10 inches of the stuff) Under that was soft wet soil that was holding the water. I ended up having to let the water drain for about a week. Now that it's drained off all that water, the inside of the structure is dry as a bone!! We had a major run-in with sever thunderstorms the other night and when I checked the building in the morning it was still dry as a bone... YEAH! Thumbs Up

I'm going to finish the trench filled with rock to grade. That should help with keeping the foundation, and ultimately the inside, dry for the next 20 years or so.

The drain ain't nothin' fancy; 100 ft of slotted 4 inch drain pipe covered with nylon "drain sock". (If you've never put this stuff on a drain line, you've not experienced a time consuming, tedious PITA. Take my advice.. it takes TWO people!)

We put about 4-6 inches of rock in the bottom of the trench.( Allowing for a nice smooth slope.) Dropped the drain pipe in and covered with rock.

I've run out of rock and will need to get about another yard or so to complete it. Rock should be here next week.

Whilst digging, I had the guy start leveling the North elevation off. I'm planning on putting my woodshop (12x24) on an 8 inch reinforced pad and will then pour the remaining length of the building as a 12'x24'x6 inch reinforced pad to store the mobile rig.

I have to be careful with this phase of construction. I can't really pour the pad yet. I don't have building permits as I'm still wrangling with the septic issue. So far, that fine. I had to add quite a bit of soil to the NE corner where the hill continues down from the studio. That soil needs to settle and compact for a few weeks anyway.

Pix to follow this weekend.

Max

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:36 pm

I'm having a hard time getting my images uploaded to my ftp site. GREAT, something else to get fixed...

I'll get some pix up... sometime!

Oh, Hey... another hurdle addressed!

The 2nd soil evaluation is scheduled for sometime in the next 4 weeks!! (The bill to go to the neighbor.)

Just met with a concrete contractor. His recommendation for the floors; flat 6" fiberfill concrete pads w/.5" rebar.

Any thoughts as to that?

Thanx,
Max

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