FINALLY!! The saga begins

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:57 pm

Max....tell me you WANTED the panels upside down.

And I do understand about the bottom feed thru.........but still.....asthetics and all Wink

And also tell me they will allow PVC conduit inside a commercial structure.

ALSO....tell me that the 'dirty panel' has the proper T.A. on the conduit in the upper left hand corner of the box......... Exclamation

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:31 pm

YES
YES
and YES

The thing about the GE panels... there is no up or down. The main breakers are side throw instead of a vertical throw. At any rate, the meter face has to be at no higher than 5'-6". To meet Duke Power's height requirement, and because all the power goes overhead, why not put the panels in correctly... or as you put it... invert the panels? Laughing

The floor of the lounge is actually over 24" above grade at each of the panels.

Besides, it's definitely going to make for MUCH cleaner wiring in the panels, and much shorter power runs around the rest of the panel.

What's wrong with the asthetics of the bottom feed thru? The wires will all be inside the wall?

The last PVC they were putting in... they ran out of rings and bushings just before they walked out the door. That last PVC will be completed and to code... believe me... our inspectors are as tough as they come.

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:03 pm

Excellent.

Let me ask this (dont you just love me busting yer chops???)

Where is the "Means of disconnect" on the secondary side of your isolation transformer?

I know theres a 'main' on the power panel, (which, BTW, in some locals is required to switch from left to right to shut OFF) but There should be a main on the feeders from the transformer to the clean panel also.

Every set of transformer windings creates a service and therefore must have means of disconnect before the load. Load= panel and associated circuits blahblahblah etcetc.....

Unless the authority having jurisdiction allows that the breaker feeding the transformer is the main disconnect for the clean power panel thereby relieving the term 'service' to this transformer set-up.

They would have to be calling this 'equipment' and the clean panel would have determined to be an itergral part of this 'equipment'.

This CAN be part of the transformer or a switch. It would be sized to the wire and not the rating on the transformer in this case.

I'm sure your contractor knows whats up....

I'm just curious...... As well as licensed.

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:03 am

No problem, DD... bust away!

Oddly, I think GE must be aware of the Left to Right deal... In the "inverted" position, these breakers do switch from Left to Right to disengage the energy... go figger', huh? (Actually, I think you can order the main disconnect this way)

The "Means of Disconnect" will be on the sub panel out by the transformer. It will look something like this (and DEFINITELY to code);

Dirty Panel ->feeder ->Outdoor Sub Panel ->Isolation X-Former ->feeder ->Clean Panel

The sub-panel that feeds the isolation transformer will also feed the HVAC compressors and a few other exterior items.

Way back at the beginning of this whole insanity, I was informed that the studio was going to be classified as a commercial building. As such, there were some things that would be commercially rated and built.

I had called a number of commercial electrical contractors. Of the 4 I called, they ALL said this was too small of a job for them, but two of them recommended the same guy. When I checked him out with the county, the inspectors can't really say too much... but he got this big grin of approval, looked at me and said that he was indeed more than qualified to do the work in this county.

Andy's done several MUCH higher end jobs than this one, including another major studio in the area.

One of my major tenants to this build is the electrical power. I come to this with about 30 years experience of high voltage/high energy circuitry and electronics engineering background. So, in my mind, the acoustics of the room are priority one, and power is priority two.

We're probably exceeding the code requirements on most things by a factor of 2... e.g. where circuits are calling for a wire size, we're doubling. There will be NO aluminum wire at all, except at the service entrance from the main transformer to the building. (Which I'm still pretty pissed off about.) But at least the aluminum feeder was doubled from 00 to a 000.

The isolation transformer could have been a sub 10KVA, but I went up to a 15KVA. Instead of pulling a #4, we're gonna pull a #2 copper from the dirty panel, to the sub panel. Then we'll probably pull a #3 from the panel to the isolation transformer and back to the clean power. I'd rather pull a #2 all the way, but at a $.50/foot difference in cost, it's going to depend on whether we can get a price break for a full spool or not.

So... I'm pretty confident that the clean power will be just that... clean.

The majority of the lights for the studio will be halogen. We're using Lightolier controls and fixtures. There will be dimmable par 38 cans suspended off of ladder truss in the main tracking room. The rest of the fixtures in the lounge will be dimmable halogen cans with only a couple of standard pars in the bathroom at the sink.

We will be using noise filter packs on all of the dimming circuits, which I have been guaranteed will not introduce any noise to the building. If they do, they will be replaced at the contractor and distributors cost, as Lightolier's engineering staff has certified these dimmers and filter packs to be compliant to this application.

Each duplex outlet of clean power is a direct home run back to the clean panel. All of the dirty power, in the studio proper, is on 4 discrete circuits. Those circuits can be disengaged if not in use.

None of the power is within 6 feet of a signal panel. Wherever possible, the dirty power circuits were routed as far away from the clean power circuits as possible. Also, lighting circuits were run as far away from all other runs as possible.

All power runs overhead and all low voltage signal lines run underneath the floor slabs.

After that... all I know to do is hope and pray that we don't get reflected energy spikes or noise on our line. If we do... it's gonna cost me out the wazoo to get a mains filtering transformer... but we'll do what we gotta do if that situation arises.

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:04 pm

Excellent.

The only time I have ever seen the power create any noise in the signal system is when the runs are parallel to each other and in close proximity. Then you get the Field Effect which is a real bugger to track down and kill.

I always recommend using Hospital grade devices on the clean power and making sure the redundant grounding is tied to the conduit system. But since you're not in conduit, its a moot point. In your case I probably would have insisted on using 12-3 nmb at all the home runs simply to make the red a redundant ground for the clean power.

It is redundant, but it gives you another path to use should you need to attach a drain to clear out some noise from the power supplier in your area.

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:28 pm

10KVA vs 15KVA?
00 vs 000 aluminum feeder?
Mains filtering transformer?
12-3 nmb?

I may not know what it all means but man it's really cool sounding. I get excited reading all this stuff.

BTW...that fire caulk crap would have made me quit! Smile

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:14 pm

DD,

The duplexes will all be Hospital Grade... Commercial on all the others... except the coffee pot (heheheh)

I wanted to kick myself about not using 12-3, but one thing I had to remind myself of was that all the low voltage stuff is in conduits under the slab. That being the case, I can pull chassis drains through the conduits to the panel ground.

We're still working out how best to do that conduit... I'm thinking run a 1.5" out of the bottom of the clean panel, turn it two 90's and get it in the first equipment bay at the back of the control room. The only problem I have with that is that the grounds would then be running mighty close to the mains feed. Any suggestions?

pr0gr4m,

believe me... the process of fire caulking is about enough to make ANYONE quit. That stuff is a bigger PITA than an ex-spouse! (maybe 3 or 4!)

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:47 am

Andy and I met for a good long while last night going over a the lighting and dimmer installation.

Amongst the sweatdrops in our eyes at 7PM, we managed to get the task completed... not the installation, but the layout plan;

The filter packs require a conduit to enter/exit.

The dimmers themselves are pretty thick and the heat-sinks take up an entire duplex outlet.

The plan is to mount a 5/8" sheet of plywood to the stud bay face, and fill the bay with mineral wool.

We're going to install two power troughs... One at the top and one at the bottom of the stud bay. The filters will be at the top, underneath the trough. The load lines will go to the filters.

Then, conduit will connect the dimmers to the filter packs through conduit.

The dimmers' power feed will come through the bottom trough and go back to the dirty panel.

I'm in the process of looking for some thicker lumber for all the door jambs...

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:59 am

MadMax wrote:

I'm in the process of looking for some thicker lumber for all the door jambs...

Max,

any good lumberyard (forget Lowes or HD) will be able to order you 5/4 stock clear pine.

Rod

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:32 am

Rod,

There's several lumber yards to contact, but yeah... the big boxes are pretty useless.

I found a woodworkers forum here in NC... several small mill operations, but high quality. I'm waiting on info/prices.

Since the tracking room will be oak/cedar, I'm hoping for some nice red oak to be available, if not, some cherry or maple would be sweet... we'll see.

Thanx again!
Max

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:41 am

Not a fun update to make, but it's the only news there really is...

The heat here has been BRUTAL for the past week. It's forced the HVAC guys to start early and quit early. They've been starting about 7AM and bailing out about 3:30PM.

It's ridiculous to expect the guys to work in 100 degree outside temps. I don't have a thermometer, but the guys are estimating that it's easily 110-115 in the attic space.

So, needless to say that it's slow going up in there. So much so, that the crew is getting pulled off of this job for a couple of days to get another small job done. They are supposed to be back on Monday. (They sure as heck better be!)

All of the main metal feed and return trunks are in and sealed.

They ran into two minor snags. The two side wall returns in the control room and one of the feeds in the tracking room;

The front edge of the returns in the control room are coming up about 4 inches too close to a roof truss. The options are to push them further down into the joists, and/or angle them down a bit in the back so that the connection is more vertical. Either way, the installers are pretty confident that the problem is going to work out.

The issue with one of the tracking room supply's is a bit trickier, and I'm going to need some advice from Rod...

When they turned the hard duct out to the tracking room, it's coming out right over the supply that is in front of the control room window.

I have limited choices as to how best resolve this. All of the supplies on the control room side of the main beam are spaced every 4 joists; halfway between the beam and the wall. To move the supply where it will still be halfway between the main beam and the wall, will put it spaced only two joists from another supply. To keep it in the same joist space will move it about 18-24 inches from the main beam, to give it enough space to get it out of the duct and flexed into position.

My gut feeling is that it would be best to keep it in the correct joist and just move it closer to the beam, but before I go fartin' around with the air patterns in the room, I figured I'd ask for some advice.

(for those that have been reading all this insanity) Again, this is one of those things that goes back to the very beginning of the floor and foundation. When the decision was made to hold the front of the building constant and raising the lounge end by 8", we lost what is now consistently a very critical 4" in the interstitial/attic space.

So anyone doing a build... be VERY aware of how absolutely true it is that everything is based upon your foundation and that the foundation is indeed the most critical part of your studio. It can really come down to a game of inches, and those inches can end up costing you some serious dollars.

The electrical contractor and I are going to try to get together either tomorrow (Thursday) or Friday to lay out the final assembly of the lighting. We'll probably put everything together except the filter packs, leaving them until the gypsum is all up and installed. That way they will avoid all the dust.

Due to the heat, I have not been working on the fire caulking. It just takes its toll on me and it''s not worth risking another episode of electrolyte loss.

We're supposed to be getting a break from the heat the rest of the week... I sure hope so... I need to get this all done soon. I've got clients calling and wanting to schedule time, and I'm starting to get antsy about turning away business.

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:40 am

It has been beastly around here. Whoever is paying these guys by the hour is pretty much getting pain and suffering (rather than progress on the job) for their money after about 10 AM. Probably better that they moved temporarily to another job. Good luck.

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:16 am

Max,

what is the distance from the bottom of the main trunk to the top of the outlet into the room?

Perhaps a picture would help me visulaize this.

Rod

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:02 pm

I'll snag a pick and get actual measurements in the morning, and get em' posted ASAP.

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:53 am

I’ve picked up a Delmhorst J-Lite wood moisture meter. I think it’ll be a sufficient meter for my needs… hope so anyway.

I did some random checking in the pile of lumber intended for the finish lumber in the studio, and most all of the wood has reached between 9 and 9.5 percent. (Allowing for temperature and species)

Unfortunately, with the lack of space to move the lumber, it’s going to have to sit in the basement for at least another couple of weeks until I get my rough-in inspections done.

At that time, I’ll move the stack to the studio to get the moisture content down as low as I can before starting to work with it.

There won’t be a permanent power connection for several weeks after that, so sitting in the heat of the building should help to drive that moisture down another point or so.

If nothing else, maybe I can put a dehumidifier next to the pile to help draw out more moisture.

I'll come back and edit this post with a pix and the measurements in a few minutes.

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