Thread: Recording Piano in Chamber Music

seems like you're on the right path, James. If it's a concert, there's not much you can do about it. (Well, you can make suggestions and hope for the best, but it's usually a situation where you're the tail wagging the dog - unless it's a REALLY important recording they've having done.)

For a studio recording, you could of course move them around more, getting the best of both worlds, but in a situation like that, you're often limited to what you can do in the space you have.

Another suggestion might be to try mic'ing the piano from underneath (or at least one mic down there). I think David has suggested this in a previous post. I've also done it with a Harpsichord (lid closed) on a very crowded stage. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. You may get some thicker/fuller sound under there, while capturing the detail and upper harmonics with a main stereo pair.

Worse case scenario, the piano is at half stick, and we simply cheat a cardioid or two in there. It's not perfect, but with a main omni pair taking care of the rest of it all, sometimes all you need is a little detail.

I have been recording a group regularly with this configuration, both in concert and for CD recordings for 11 years.

http://www.southernxsoloists.com/

Its very difficult to get the sort of separation one requires. We hve oboe, bassoon, clarinet and horn that like to sit very close to the piano even in recordings and also in a rectangle looking at each other, two on each side.

On top of this, we have a soprano out front as well. :(

The last CD recording I did with them earlier this year, I multitracked for the first time and started to get some really exciting results. Here is the config.

1. Main pair, AKG426 Blumlein, angled down, so that soprano was in null, standing under it.

2. Higher 4003 omni outriggers.

3. Schoeps MS Pair on piano, in close, similar to where you had your cardioid, always full stick, never half stick.

4. SF24 on soprano, some 2m in front of her at mouth level.

Recorded to 8 track and I am keeping what I did with the pairs secret :), but I will post an example soon.

But multitrack gives you the control you need to get the important balance correct between the piano and the group. I have done many stereo recordings of this as well, and the MS pair on the piano gives the most control. I find a mono mic on the piano, sounds unacceptable in general.

My point is, that you need multitrack for best piano control, ie adding reverb to the piano pair to get its sound into perspective with the main pair despite being so close. Just lifting a cardioid into the mix does not work well, as just a highlight does not provide enough gain for chamber music piano parts, and if you use too much gain, the sound perspective is all wrong and too close and mono.

Why, David, I am SHOCKED!!! You've gone multitrack on us! 8-)

Sounds like you're enjoying it, too.

I find that piano can be a tricky beast when doing concert recordings. I usually will request the piano to be on full stick for most performances. Piano volume is not controlled by the lid height, but rather the spectral/tonal balance and the projection is affected by lid position. Volume is controlled by the player.

First thought is: If the ensemble isn't balanced, they need to play balanced.

Second thought- if the perspective is messed up (ie piano sounds distant), than the microphone position or choice is in need of adjustment.

Third though- sometimes the room sucks and you just don't have a choice as to position. In that case, I'll haul out the spot mics. I've done a few things that work- The most often when things are that tight is a mic on a boom coming from the back of the piano. Usually I'll use either an omni (to get a reasonable low end) or a hypercardiod depending on position to avoid performer's production sounds. The other option is a microphone such as the DPA 4021 with the piano gooseneck. Neither is going to give a great piano sound, but the purpose is a touch-up spot. Not a main piano mic.

Oh well, just a few thoughts...

--Ben

I'm a pianist as well... Clarinet is my main instrument, but I was also a pretty decent pianist (but not anymore).

It tends to be nearly impossible to convince most players about this. But the volume really doesn't change. The tone will radically change. The lower the lid, the more muted the sound and the less it will project, but the SPL coming off it remains...

I've had the mics out there and heard the sound change because of an overzealous performer (usually vocalists) who insists on closing the lid all the way. Ends up ruining the sound, but the ballance issues usually remain. On occasion, because the piano is muted, it will help, but it is always at the expense of the piano sound.

In the end, I usually don't make a huge deal about this because it is a live performance. The most important thing is to make sure the performers are happy and comfortable. It is my job to make the best recording I can based on the set of circumstances. If the recording will suffer because of this, so be it. In a session, I'll be a pain about this, but for a concert I will usually let things go however the performer wants it.

--Ben