Product development gone bananas

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:45 am

Any doubt that product development in modern consumer electronics has gone completely barmy, will be removed when you take a look at this useless thing.

http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2005/10/there-is-god-and-his-name-is-sony-pcm.html

I guess everyone is trying desperately to develop another killer device like the iPod. Its made of titanium (why?) and costs $2000 USD (bargain!) and uses crossed cardioids, except they are not coincident but spaced incorrectly, left audio will arrive at the right hand mike first (ugh!). Classic design errors.

I had a good laugh, what do others think.

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:27 pm

Oh my root! I hope that they've made the correction for the channel reversal internally.

I saw this thing in New York last weekend but forgot to make an enquiry as to the above.

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:36 pm

How do you press RECORD when it is at the top of a 18' mic stand?

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:45 pm

Quote:

How do you press RECORD when it is at the top of a 18' mic stand? -- Zilla

Nothing is more easy: just order the thing with optional (+ $1000) remote control... I bet it's of titanium as well. Shocked

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:22 pm

Yikes! It looks a little like Robbie the Robot or something.

WAYYYYY too much $ for the features. I don't care if it's made of solid gold, that's just ridiculous at $2k. It's a nice prosumer "toy", but at that price, I'd rather go after the M-Audio version without the mics for $499.

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:59 pm

Plush wrote:

Oh my root! I hope that they've made the correction for the channel reversal internally.

I saw this thing in New York last weekend but forgot to make an enquiry as to the above.

It would take some pretty fancy DSP to separate the directional cues and time delay cues to correct for just one of them. Lake could probably do it, I guess it would drive the cost up a bit. Smile

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:05 pm

It doesn't record 5.1, so how useful could it be? I mean, Sony now offers a consumer camcorder that records surroundsound! What ever happened to quadraphonic??

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:44 pm

Now for about 2/3 the price, here is a device where the designers have got a real clue. Its certainly on my shopping list.
http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/pages/products_ares_m.php

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:39 am

Hi David
That looks like something I could could enjoy playing with! Anyone know of something like this with digital inputs? I'd love something a little more affordable for emergency backup.
John

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:42 am

DavidSpearritt wrote:

Plush wrote:

Oh my root! I hope that they've made the correction for the channel reversal internally.

I saw this thing in New York last weekend but forgot to make an enquiry as to the above.

It would take some pretty fancy DSP to separate the directional cues and time delay cues to correct for just one of them. Lake could probably do it, I guess it would drive the cost up a bit. Smile

Actually, this is a correct variant of xy placement, as you know. The difference is that you have to connect the left ch. xlr to the right mic and vice versa.

So, Sony could just switch the channels in analog before going to the adc.

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:22 am

Plush wrote:

DavidSpearritt wrote:

Plush wrote:

Oh my root! I hope that they've made the correction for the channel reversal internally.

I saw this thing in New York last weekend but forgot to make an enquiry as to the above.

It would take some pretty fancy DSP to separate the directional cues and time delay cues to correct for just one of them. Lake could probably do it, I guess it would drive the cost up a bit. Smile

Actually, this is a correct variant of xy placement, as you know. The difference is that you have to connect the left ch. xlr to the right mic and vice versa.

So, Sony could just switch the channels in analog before going to the adc.

I don't think simply swapping the cables internally would do the trick.

You would have sound from the left first hitting the right, but it would be off-axis. You would then have reflections due to the actual placement of the microphone elements.

So you would have:

A time delay, similar but not as drastic as non-coincident techniques (AB, NOS)

Channel reversal (easily fixed by swapping channels)

Acoustical build-up

I don't know, maybe this could all easily be corrected, it just doesn't seem that easy to me.

J.

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:23 am

Zilla wrote:

How do you press RECORD when it is at the top of a 18' mic stand?

http://www.futurehorizons.net/HILL_lg.jpg

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:57 pm

the microphones are correct if you mounted upside down on top of that 18 foot stand? Aren't they? If the microphones are XY, does that mean they're all boys?

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:49 pm

Quote:

Actually, this is a correct variant of xy placement, as you know. The difference is that you have to connect the left ch. xlr to the right mic and vice versa.

So, Sony could just switch the channels in analog before going to the adc.

No its not a correct variant of XY, and this was my point. They have to be coincident or truely "crossed".

Assume the channels are swapped. You still have a small time delay associated with the capsule distance of 30mm or so. But this time delay swaps the channels opposite to the directional arrangement of channels. Like I originally stated, consider the time delay path only, assuming from the picture that the left channel mic is on the right, sound from the left reaches the right mic first!

Its only small but what it would do to most of the central image where the directivity is still strong in both channels is laughable.

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:16 pm

You know, with XY, the delay is not a major factor. The stereo image is rather bland however. Neither is crossed coincidence. With ORTF, better stereo image many more phase problems but a substantially broader stereo image. Blumlien, don't know which way they're headed?

So do what I do, when possible..... Use MS! A beautiful and adjustable stereo image, from a narrow to a wide perspective. Oh!? Europeans do that, not us Americans even if there is NO PHASE DISTORTION!

When they are summed to Mono, you completely lose the out of phase, figure 8 mic. The stereo sound and imaging, is stunning with this setup. Far more impressive than your other choices. You end up with a beautiful solid monaural image, front and center! The setup is far less obtrusive and does not require a lot of hanging hardware (I hate seeing all that crap).

For orchestral work, choirs, it's hard to beat a beautiful pair of ribbon microphones. You want simplicity? Try the Shure MS all in one condenser microphones. Or the Phantom powered Royer stereo ribbon? I love using the Bayer M130, figure 8 and the M160 HyperCardioid. Relatively small and inexpensive along with being far less unobtrusive. You want less obtrusive? Shoeps has a miniature condenser version. Why are people so hot on spaced omnis and cardios? Besides, here, everybody is discussing a useless rich man's toy. Have I gotten everybody angry now with my stupid sensible practical suggestions?? Has anybody learned anything here? I think so. Don't buy these stupid Sony toys.

That awful, 50-year-old, Grammy and Emmy nominated engineer, woman that doesn't know nothin'.

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