Question regarding volume levels for feature length movies

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:26 am

When I burn home DVD's, the volume levels are not loud enough compared to other DVD's I have, television programs, etc. I've heard that compression is "bad" for features. Does that mean "bad" for mastering or just for tracking? And what about Loudness Maximizer plug-ins that increase percieved volume levels? Do I need a combination of loudness maximizer and compression mastering? Or maybe that $1,000 Dolby plugin boosts volume levels when you get to that final stage. ?? Any help appreciated because I'm working on my own DVD feature and my background is only in music.

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:53 am

When you state that you burned home DVDs, what exactly do you mean? Are they music or spoken word or a combination of both? Hollywood style movies have a very broad dynamic range from explosions, to whispers. When you produce your own home DVDs, what kind of audio postproduction do you do to them? " Loudness maximizer's" are generally aggressive compression and are not generally great for spoken word oriented material. The Dolby processors used for movies are generally digital compression devices so that you can encode 5.1 signals into an optical 2 track soundtrack and probably a needless expense for you. You may want to take your home productions and export your audio track so that you can put it through a " normalization" process and bring your soundtrack up to the highest overall digital level without distortion, while still retaining your dynamic range? Then reimport them into your nonlinear video editor like Premier or Final Cut Pro. Compression and limiting can be utilized but remember when dealing with spoken word and quiet backgrounds you can get an undesirable pumping effect with an increase in background noise. If you're dealing with mostly music and very little dialogue, you might be well off to add some compression and limiting before you burn your DVD's? Either way you may want to selectively do everything that I have mentioned without doing just one thing across the board to the entire production. That's film sound! In the land of movies, they frequently take 3 people to mix a production. One guy for dialogue. One guy for effects and one guy for music. When can I start???

Music entertainment, corporate and industrial video producer/audio producer/editor/mixer. That's a lot of hat's! How do I look???
Ms. Remy Ann David

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:56 am

Quote:

When you state that you burned home DVDs, what exactly do you mean?

I'm using the software Toast.

Quote:

Are they music or spoken word or a combination of both?

Spoken word at the moment.
I use Nuendo for audio and Final Cut Pro for video I DO use normalize.
Sounds like compression / limiting is a better choice than Loudness Maximizing for movies if I do need a volume boost. Yeah?

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:03 pm

First let me ask you to put your speakers in the stirups. Thank you.

Volume maximizing and compression/limiting is really the same thing. Yes, I would recommend some conservative compression/limiting as it's not as aggressive as "volume maximizing". After that you may still want to normalize? You may also want to couple your compression/limiting with a little bit of downward expansion to control the noise rush beneath the useful working threshold?

At your cervix. " Let's roll"
Ms. Remy Ann David

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:18 pm

As I am still perfecting my skills as a re-recording mixer I can hardly call myself an expert. However, I have found that using an aggressive EQ and a compressor/maximizer on hard sound FX (gunshots, punches, etc.) makes their perceived volume louder. I also use some compression on non-diegetic music. This enables me to lower their actual volume and increase the overall volume of the entire soundtrack.

Once I have completed the mix of a film I first normalize it and then do a "mastering" pass of some additional EQ treatment and and very light compression/limiting. This occassionaly allows me to normalize again, adding a few more dbs. After completing the "mastering" pass the finished mix is exported from Pro Tools to the format requested by my client, usually 16bit/48kHz AIF.

My mixes are much "hotter" than they used to be with a minimal increase in the background noise of the location tracks. I spend a lot of time working with room tones, EQ and noise reduction on the location tracks to begin with, but that's another story.

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:21 pm

There are some things you need to look at first. Is the room you are mixing in calibrated to 85db spl? This is the level at which features are mixed at. Check Dr. Sound's stickey post at the top of the DUC Surround mixing section. http://digidesign.com/ Once you know what that level is, you can mix to it. Do not compress a feature mix, unless it is going directly to DVD. DVD's need less dynamic range because they are for home playback which is at a lower level than theatrical. Have you ever had to sit with your remote in hand, turning up dialogue and than turning down heavy score or sfx? Thats because the feature was not compressed for home viewing. If you are mixing for Dolby Digital, mix it as loud as you want without clipping. Where you get into trouble is with the optical track print, which if printed too hot can cause excursions beyond the frame limits. Your Dolby technician creating your print master will allert you to these excursions and tell you to lower the offending section. I'm sure Remy and Dr. Sound will have corrections for me, but thats what I currently know about it.

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:51 pm

Sounds good to me Chuck!

Remy Ann David

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:25 pm

He mentions he is doing a feature that will be for DVD release. Honestly, I find that mixing for DVD at 85db in small room (I'm assuming he is in a smaller room as opposed to a mix theatre) is a bit on the loud side. I would prefer to mix at a max of 80-82db in that environment. I suppose you could argue that people with surround systems are cranking these things, and listening at higher levels than the average tv folks who tend to listen at 78-80db.

For DVD, he will need to pay more attention to compressing that dynamic range, as he won't have as much latitude as he would if mixing for a theatrical release. Don't want people having to hold the receiver remote in their hand while watching the flick. Doesn't have to be as squashed as TV mixes, but does need some control.

As for the mixing side of things, each track can pose its own challenges and may require different approaches. That's the art of it I suppose. Some dialogue tracks will need a fair amount of compression (make sure to use good ones) while other tracks may just sit in the mix really nicely with very little compression. The thing to strive for is clarity and balance. If a track sounds like it has been processed, other methods might be necessary or in many cases, you are stuck with sh#$ in sh#$ out. Then you have to resort to things like ADR.

Steve

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:45 pm

stevesherrick wrote:

He mentions he is doing a feature that will be for DVD release. Honestly, I find that mixing for DVD at 85db in small room (I'm assuming he is in a smaller room as opposed to a mix theatre) is a bit on the loud side. I would prefer to mix at a max of 80-82db in that environment. I suppose you could argue that people with surround systems are cranking these things, and listening at higher levels than the average tv folks who tend to listen at 78-80db.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but aren't television programs typically mixed at 79dB SPL C-weighted slow response?

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:23 pm

78dbc. Once again I see someone else saying that 85dbc is louder at the mix position in a small room, than in a big room.(I've seen it on the DUC and the C.A.S. board.) 85db spl measured at the mix position, small or large room, should be 85 db spl. Unless there is some psychoacoustic principle I'm missing. And yes, straight to DVD, you could mix at television levels.

Don't want people having to hold the receiver remote in their hand while watching the flick. Doesn't have to be as squashed as TV mixes, but does need some control

Quote:

Read my post.

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:28 pm

How in the hell do you work this Quote thing!!! Evil or Very Mad

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:51 pm

Quote:

78dbc. Once again I see someone else saying that 85dbc is louder at the mix position in a small room

Click the quote button, then paste your quote, then clcik quote button again.

Charles, in a small room, its 79dbc.

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:36 pm

Actually what I'm saying is that 85DB tends to be loud for my ears when I mix at that SPL in a small room such as a project studio or even some TV control rooms. I understand that 85db is 85db, but I have found that I am much more comfortable at a 78-80db level. I haven't had the luxury of mixing in the Hollywood style mix theatres yet, so I can't comment on that. I think I'm just more on the conservative side when it comes to mix levels.

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:48 am

Thanks TVPostSound. I'd love to know where you got the 79db ref level. Acording to AES specs for refrence levels, its 83 at -18 dbfs and 85 at -20dbfs. According to Dolbys set up specs, They break it down to monitor size, with small monitors set to 78db and large theatrical monitors at 85db. According to BlueSky calibration papers TV levels are 78db. The Grammy Associations spec papers say 79-85db, but they are concerned with music mixing. I think the only refrence that is set in stone is 85 for features because thats what properly calibrated theaters are set to, so you know your levels will translate. It is the level you can listen to for 8 hours without causing hearing damage. I don't think there is an official calibration level for TV because there is no standardised playback level for home systems. Loud enough to hear detail, but quiet enough to dissuade a dynamic range inappropriate for the medium.
I could be wrong. But thats my 2 cents.

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:11 pm

Hey Charles

Heres a good reference:
http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/44_SuroundMixing.pdf

Page 2-14

Now most of my work is TV, and Home DVD mastering, so I stay with 79dB,
also using a modified X-Curve. I went with 1.5dB per octave drop above 2K.

Peace

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