Old masonry to recording room

Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:33 am

Hi,

The part of old European masonry will be my temporary recording location for the next year. According to that deal I'm planning to restrict the budget and do only the necessary things to make this place usable for recording. No fancy look at all, just the functionality.

The building (a house with basement, ground floor and one floor above) has massive brick walls, most of those are over 50 cm (19'') covered with stucco. Recording and control room are surrounded with other rooms (empty and out of use) and only one side of the room (with windows on north side) is exposed to street with moderate traffic. Nobody lives in the house.

Recording room is 5 m (L) x 4.6 m (W) x 3.2 m (H) [16.4' x 15' x 10.5']

Floor plan:

The room:

Object architecture:

The plan:

1. replacing existing creaky wood floor with concrete
2. soundproofing (noise reduction) for incoming sound (windows)
3. soundproofing (nr) bleeding between recording and control rooms
4. basstraping (corners and cloud)
5. drum riser

1. Existing floor shows age (uneven surface, breathing, noises) and need replacement. I was looking for different solution for the floor but the concrete one is less complicate and fast. The weight of concrete is another problem but I'm going only with the minimum (5 cm / 2'') with armature and fibers. Few construction workers with experience (not the engineers) have told me that basement arch/vault is strong enough to support this concrete plate. Statically, this is the big question for me ... so I'm worry.

The floor:

Basement ceiling (under the rec room):

2. Big windows – big problem. Wooden frame filed and covered with gypsum boards should help. There will be the gap between inner glass and the back of new barrier (acting like m-a-m). I'm planning to close one window completely, and for another I'm working on similar but open/close system.

Window:

Plan scheme top:

3. Two wings door is connection between recording and control room. I'm planning to add more mass on existing wings (chipboards) on both sides. Smaller inner wood frame with rubber inside the door jamb should help for better „air tight“. I will buy some cheap regular door and build the bigger outer frame (recording room side). Chipboards for more mass to the new door and gypsum boards to fill and cover the new frame.

Door:

Plan scheme top:

4. Classic. Mineral wool in garbage bags. I will start with cloud and ceiling/walls corners, maybe adding some more for flutter echo ... need the time to play with.

5. To decouple drums from the floor, avoiding vibration travel to the floor and less transmition to control room. For this I'm planning the wooden box 2.5 x 2.5 x 0.1 m [8' x 8' x 4''] filed with sand (800 kg) and placed on 9 car tires. Honestly, I'm 50:50 about that.

If I'm doing something extremely stupid, please let me know before it's too late. Of course, all comments are welcome too.

Thanks in advance.

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:16 am

Hello,

Hmm, no comments at all ...

Today is concrete day. Workers in action, pouring, leveling and finishing the concrete floor. Everything was done in 2 hours.

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:56 am

What a building!! Where are you located, and what year was this place built!?

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:29 pm

_Mikael wrote:

What a building!! Where are you located, and what year was this place built!?

Hi _Mikael,

I'm in Croatia. The house was build in the middle/late of the 19th century, I don't know exactly the year.

Regards

Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:57 am

Groff wrote:

_Mikael wrote:

What a building!! Where are you located, and what year was this place built!?

Hi _Mikael,

I'm in Croatia. The house was build in the middle/late of the 19th century, I don't know exactly the year.

Regards

Am I the only one who wants to see the outside of this place? Seems like it has a lot of character.

Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:37 pm

MadTiger3000 wrote:

Am I the only one who wants to see the outside of this place? Seems like it has a lot of character.

No kidding. Is it an old factory/warehouse? Or was this a rather large family home (compound!)

That's some cool stonework in the basement.

Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:23 pm

_Mikael wrote:

MadTiger3000 wrote:

Am I the only one who wants to see the outside of this place? Seems like it has a lot of character.

No kidding. Is it an old factory/warehouse? Or was this a rather large family home (compound!)

That's some cool stonework in the basement.

As far as I know, in the beginning this building was a hotel. Lately was used as family house. The floor plan above shows only the part of the house. Each floor is over 200 m2 (2.150 square feet). The basement too.

The white part of basement ceiling is not made of stone. That's whitewash on brick barrel vault.

External stucco was changed few times during century. Right now the look is nothing special. Pretty plain. There is “soul” inside the house, something you can feel more than you can see on the photos.

I will see what I can do about the early photos of the building.

Regards

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:25 pm

That basement would make a great live reverb room!
I love the sound of those old live reverb chambers.
Larry

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:10 am

Hi there

Nothing much about acoustic work yet. The windows were in bad condition and need restoration. Lots of sanding / primer / drying / lacquer /drying /cleaning. 12 frames and two jambs. What a boring work! And time consuming to death. I’m glad that’s behind me. Next week is shopping time.

Before and after:

Speaking of treatment, I have clear picture about corners and ceiling absorbers, but I didn’t find much for recording room walls. I would like to have room not too live for vocals/acoustic inst. and not too dead for the drums. Tight, clear and a bit airy.

Here, two ideas for the wall. The wooden frame with the slats and lower density wool (or maybe compressed cotton) behind, acting like broadband absorber with diffusion. No sealed cavity, but wit 2’’- 4’’ air gap between the wall and insulation.

A

B

I’m not sure would that be efficient for lowering the early reflections and flutter echo.

Should I build the zig-zag walls or angled walls using the same objects or something else?

Could you give me some advice, please.

I have checked dimensions of my room with htttp://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm and find that my recording room isn’t so bad at all.

Computed Information:
Room Dimensions: Length=5 m, Width=4.59 m, Height=3.2 m
Room Ratio: 1 : 1.43 : 1.56
R. Walker BBC 1996:
- 1.1w / h < l / h < ((4.5w / h) - 4): Fail
- l < 3h & w < 3h: Pass
- no integer multiple within 5%: Pass
Nearest Known Ratio:
- "21) Origin unknown: meant for small room" 1 : 1.5 : 1.6
RT60 (IEC/AEC N 12-A standard): 254 ms
- ±50ms from 200Hz to 3.5kHz = 204 to 304ms
- ±100ms above 3.5kHz = 154 to 354ms
- <+300ms at 63hz = 554ms
- 300<RT60<600ms
RT60 (ITU/EBU Control Room Recommended): 225 ms
- ±50ms from 200Hz to 4kHz = 175 to 275ms
- <+300ms at 63hz = 525ms
- 200<RT60<400ms
Absorbtion to achieve ITU RT60: 565 sabins
- No modal boost: 1hz to 34hz
- Room Modes dominate: 34hz to 104hz
- Diffraction and Diffusion dominate: 104hz to 416hz
- Specular reflections and ray accoustics prevail: 416hz to 20000hz
Count (34.4-186hz) : Axials=12, Tangentials=47, Obliques=60
Count (34.4-100hz) : Axials=5, Tangentials=7, Obliques=3

Thanks
Best regards

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:55 am

Hi,

After searching and reading, I find my previous slot absorber plan needs redesign. For recording room walls should be angled asymmetrically, right? Then I could make each wall as slot absorber (floor to ceiling).

The real question is what degree of angle for each wall to use? I wonder if there's some kind of rule about it except random asymmetry?

Here’s possible design solution. Because of the fire place I can’t treat one wall except maybe with two fire resistant gypsum boards (blue).

Red – windows/door sound barriers
Yellow – open/close barriers
Blue – fire resistant boards
Green – slot absorbers

Please, I would like to hear your comments and opinions as soon as possible. I have to rearrange the electrical wiring for the room but I can’t without the wall plan.

Thanks,

Best regards

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:46 am

Is anybody home???

Rolling Eyes

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:47 am

Yeah, there's some folks at home, but evidently tis' not the guys who really know. (i.e. me, anyway)

I think Steve's work schedule keeps him busy on some really odd schedules... poor guy, I KNOW he works his butt off and then moderates here and elsewhere for free. Seems like he's able to moderate/post something like every other week during the day, and the odd week, he's slammed at work. I don't know this for sure, but it seems to be a pattern similar to that.

Seems like Rod's been a tad busy of late as well... But hey, the moderators get to work all day/night then offer us here for free, what they get paid to know in the day gig!

I can only offfer up a couple of suggestions, neither of which directly answer your need for an answer, but hopefully will get you some answers quickly...

The Studio Tips forum is actually quite active with posts that are a bit more detailed than here... more science oriented... and John Sayer's forum is quite active as well.

Obviously, you'll need to join both forums to post.

Sheet, who mod's over in the live board has volunteered to field some questions here and seems very knowledgable. Maybe he can chime in here with some advice.

My initial thoughts, which could be completely wrong BTW, are that the geometry of the walls should more closely match each other. Granted, you don't necessarily want parallel walls, but you are also looking for some symetry.

Also, I don't know if you want tuned slot resonators as much as just general corner bass trapping.

I would suspect that the fire resistant board barrier (Blue Wall) may cause unwanted reflections in it's current geometry. Again, I'm just a hack newbie at this stuff myself, but I would think it might be best to either wait until the room is completed and see what your waterfall plots tell you, or plan that wall/barrier to be a "double angle?"/triangle with the apex in the center of the wall to more act as difussion as opposed to reflection.

PLEASE take my thoughts with a generous dose of skepticism, but do check out the other two forums... great folks, great info over there... just keep posting your buld here though. I for one am really enjoying your progress!

Max

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:30 am

Thanks MadMax

You know ... I have been scared because of talking with myself. That's not good ... more like first sign of ... having a plague. Laughing

Yes I know The Masters are busy. I just hope someone else know the trick about the angles. I have heard some rumors around 12 degrees but I’m not sure if this is acceptable for my room. No matter how deep you learning, there’s always at least one – what if. Confused

My room is small therefore I’m thinking to go with broadband absorbers as more appropriate treatment. Adding some wooden slats on surface would help to avoid dead character. I have escaped from my previous iso bs place because I was so tired of small and thin recordings and believe me, there’s no such Lex or TC to bring the life back. I’m planning to alternate slats for each “column” (from floor to ceiling) as one with and one without, and do different on opposite wall. Corners around the windows would be without slats for better traping. Making 15 m2 or so “angled wall absorber” should cover and tune (theoretically) different mid-low and low freq to some acceptable extent on this side of the room.

Like you, I doubt about the “blue wall” too. I suppose it’s not necessary. We will se what big guys are thinking about it.

We have to be objective. It’s small place (but better than iso), to many big windows, door positions, fireplace, my budget …. There is no chance to turn this place to high class studio. No intention neither. But, that’s all what I have to work with. I will give my best, with yours help of course.

Ooo, I’m digging in Sayer’s and STF quite a lot.

Greetings from Croatia
Thumbs Up

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:57 pm

Hi,

Big pause. So many things to do, so little time. Here and there a piece of Murphy’s law and … Sad

... never mind. Now I’m back to the acoustic work. Yes !!!

According to my plan, I’m working on lumber (11x9 cm // 4.3''x 3.5'') frames for closing the windows and door. Measuring, sawing, cutting, chiseling, removing the wood with rasp (middle slots), sanding and assembling with screws.

3 frames - 4 full days of working. I did some small mistakes, can't be a CNC perfection by hands anyway and this is my first experience with lumbers. But I really enjoyed the working process, lots of fun and I learned so much. At the end it seems that frames are pretty strong for supporting 6-8 layers of drywall.

I must have to say: BIG thanks to my friend Roka (carpenter) for all advices, lessons, help and little secrets on „pro tools“ for wood.

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:19 pm

Today – painting. First layer. Tomorrow, the second.

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