Old masonry to recording room

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:52 pm

double post

sorry Embarassed

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:52 pm

We spend four hours this afternoon attaching double door frame. Actually my friend did it. With my monkey grip right hand I helped him as much as I could. Funny, I worried about this frame more than I should have. No big deal at all. With few more screws through the lower lumber into the concrete floor everything comes straight and rock solid.

Thanks to my „EPROM“ I forgot the camera. Mr. Green

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:53 pm

LOL!!!! I never thought of it that way, Tiger. I should have been nicer. I remember when it was ME who told somebody here to use the old "3:1" rule on mic separation and the jabs I took over that. I still try to follow that one, but I was never the same again. Live and learn. And thanks to the decent folks here (Cucco, DaveD, Sheet, Rod, TeddyG, AudioGaff, etc), I have learned so much in the past 2 years. It just goes to show that you CAN teach an old fart new tricks. Maybe even 'CrankyFranky'...

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:28 pm

moonbaby wrote:

LOL!!!! I never thought of it that way, Tiger. I should have been nicer.

Why?

If it was just plain calmly advised wrong info... sure, be polite and civil. Point out the error with minimal explicatives and all should be well.

But, when someone spews ill-advised-snap-minded-judgement-type-kneejerk-advise... nawww... (At least you didn't "Shotgun" him!)

Quote:

I remember when it was ME who told somebody here to use the old "3:1" rule on mic separation and the jabs I took over that. I still try to follow that one, but I was never the same again. Live and learn. And thanks to the decent folks here (Cucco, DaveD, Sheet, Rod, TeddyG, AudioGaff, etc), I have learned so much in the past 2 years. It just goes to show that you CAN teach an old fart new tricks. Maybe even 'CrankyFranky'...

AMEN!

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:18 pm

Where is Shotgun these days, anyway? I can almost hear him now,"Hey, Berber-Boy, what's SHAGgin'!"...
Well, I hope that Groff will continue to post his progress with us. Very interesting, and you KNOW that in his corner of the world, this kind of project can't be easy.
BTW, now that we have all been informed that "glass and wood resonate", does that mean that I have to carpet my '67 Martin D-18? I don't want no stinkin' resonance!
Hey, Groff: Tell us about your plans for the completed room and the MICS you will be using, when you can. What gear is available to you in Croatia?

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:38 pm

Greetings!

Thanks my friends. Your words make my topic alive.

Nothing too much interesting today at my place. Measuring and cutting woods for inner frames. I could only offer previously captured pics:

Well, as you can see, I'm done with everything. Just a few carpets here and there ... but I will not show you that. It's a secret ... you know. Laughing

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:33 pm

Groff wrote:

Just a quick comment/question regarding those "secret carpets"... Thumbs Up

The lower cavities (below the bottom of the windows)... you ARE going to fill those with some sort of reasonably high density material, right? (Like insulation, sandbags, etc.)

Looking GOOD!! (Especially the thumb! - OUCH!) Keep up the good work!

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:16 pm

moonbaby wrote:

Hey, Groff: Tell us about your plans for the completed room and the MICS you will be using, when you can. What gear is available to you in Croatia?

I'm expecting good vocal and ac/el guitar recordings (rock/pop) and some local ethno instruments, but I'm really curious about the drums. Yes, I know, it won't be a heaven. For that magic much bigger room is needed. One for sure, I'm sick of all takes recorded in iso-both. No more. This room will cost me the money I saved for Royer 121 but what all mics on this world matters if room sucks. Room is playing – as much as instrument and musician.

IMH set of mics are: 57, d112, cheap sennheiser set for toms, two SM 81, Rode Classic II (main)

Outboard: Apogee Rosetta 200, API Lunchbox with two 512c, Manley Elop.

Vision: Alesis HD24 (only for drums), Lunchbox filled, Royer 121, Great River, two LDC for ambience (probably Rode NT 2000), pair of Geffel M300, e609.

Here, in local stores, we could easily find low range and cheap beri-beri stuff for masses. It's possible to purchase almost any gear but with pretty hot prices. For comparison, i.e. assume that the piece of gear in US cost 1000 $. When comes to EU it will cost approximately1000 € (which is 1300 $). Now, when comes to Croatia it goes 22% up for taxes (some devices 5-10% more) and on the end here is the dealer provision (expensive gear -> higher % of provision). So if you are „lucky“ that would be ... around 1700 $. The best part - average personal income for the month is 700 $ netto.

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:49 pm

MadMax wrote:

The lower cavities (below the bottom of the windows)... you ARE going to fill those with some sort of reasonably high density material, right? (Like insulation, sandbags, etc.)

Actually, no. One layer of particle board + 3 layers of drywall inside the frame and the same 1+3 structure on the face of the frame (room side), as I mentioned before in my revision after reading Dan’s thread. I guess that should be enough (6 drywalls + 2 particle boards.) The brick wall cavity/outside is roughly 30 cm (over 11’’) thick.

mmmmm … you make me thinking now ….

Do you see any issue?

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:51 am

Groff wrote:

Actually, no. One layer of particle board + 3 layers of drywall inside the frame and the same 1+3 structure on the face of the frame (room side), as I mentioned before in my revision after reading Dan’s thread. I guess that should be enough (6 drywalls + 2 particle boards.) The brick wall cavity/outside is roughly 30 cm (over 11’’) thick.

mmmmm … you make me thinking now ….

Do you see any issue?

I don't think it is so much of an "issue" as much as a potential use as a bass trap... for free!

I hope that Steve or Rod will chime in and correct me if my assessment is wrong, but you have that cavity that probably should be filled to reduce the resonace of the cavity. If you could find a way to expose that filled cavity to the rest of the room, you have a bit of extra bass trapping... for no more than the cost of the material to fill the void.

Otherwise, I think you might need to fill the void to eliminate any resonace of that cavity... again, I might be completely wrong, but it may be worth digging into a bit more.

Max

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:04 pm

MadMax wrote:

I don't think it is so much of an "issue" as much as a potential use as a bass trap... for free!

Max,

I had the same idea of using those cavities for extra bas trapping from beginning of my plan, but I gived up. Maybe because it's difficult to built (not impossible) in the right way. Why? The upper (window part) and the cavity are divided with 1'' thick wooden plate (white one, right under window). I suppose screwing i.e. 6 drywall layers directly under the bottom of that plate won't do much to minimize noises (outside->glass->plate->cavity). The better way would be to build another frame inside the cavity decoupled/separated from the wooden plate. The tricky part in that construction is to „soundproofing“ very important space between 3 parts: the plate - big lumber frame - new upper „ceiling“ of the cavity.

Damping those cavities is maybe even better idea.

I really appreciated all your comments. Thanks a lot.

I will post schematics of - how I'm planning to fill the gaps between mounted frames and the stucco. After mounting the frames, some gaps are 1''+ wide. Shocked

That's not my fault.

Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:38 pm

Hi,

Some of those gaps between the frame and the wall are small and some are large and wide. Leveling the stucco only with tile adhesive wouldn't help here.

Here's my idea how to fix this. I will cut drywall board in few inches wide „stripes“ and glue it with tile adhesive on the stucco. That would close the gaps, moreover, the lumbers would be less sensitive on transmission from window side because of added mass. Idea

It's very important to say, the expansive foam does NOT have any purpose as an acoustic barrier.

Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:48 pm

Groff,

PLEASE!!!! DO NOT USE THE EXPANSIVE FOAM!!! It will be a waste of time and money. It will (rather quickly) deteriorate and become totally useless. (It may last a year or three if you are lucky.) and potentially could put some pretty bad pressure on your framing timber.

You should use an acoustic caulk. e.g. a caulk that does not harden.

You might be able to use an RTV silicone, but I can't say so with 100 percent confidence... but something along those lines should do the job.

I would use it on the inside edge and as much of the outside edges and you can get to.... but not the expansive foam!!! Besides, the caulk is probably going to be cheaper!~ Shocked

max

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:52 pm

MadMax wrote:

Groff,

PLEASE!!!! DO NOT USE THE EXPANSIVE FOAM!!!

Hi Max,

Please don't get me wrong with next few „expansive foam thoughts“.

Avoiding expansive foam as acoustic sealant/barrier is pretty clear to me (lower density, cell structure, etc).

The expansive foam (here known as PU or PUR foam, polyurethane) is widely in use here since 80's, mostly for mounting windows and doors. I haven’t heard any story about falling out the frames, even those mounted without the screws! When workers were removing the frames (maybe 10-15 yrs. old) fastened with e. foam I noticed that as a hard sweaty horror. The foam sticked so damn well. Deterioration, maybe, probably, but not so fast.

Maybe we are using different kind of expansive foam?!

Pressure. Of course. The foam expand in all directions so most of the pressure will go to the places with minimum resistance, in my case – lateral sides, and the surplus will be pushed out.

For all, I need few cans of e. foam. It's acceptable, no more than 40$.

We don't have here any acoustic sealant, ac. caulk, green glue, just ordinary acetyl/acryl/bitumen based silicones, hard caulk and other common building materials.

Expansive headache… Sad

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:25 pm

Groff:
You have quite a vision there, no? I have heard horror stories of the pricing of gear in Eastern Europe, mainly due to "gouging" by enterprising theives. I wish that I had known of your project before selling off my room last summer. I had a nice (but small) Neve Melbourne (12x2) production console that would have been a nice alternative to the APIs you want. I had to sell it to a DENTIST here in Florida who sees himself as a "producer" for his daughter's singing talents.
You have started off with some decent mics. I use a pair of SM81s all the time for drum OH's and on all sorts of acoustic instruments. And if you had to sacrifice the purchase of a Royer to get the room up and running, I think that was a wise trade-off. Keep up the great work!

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