Orchestral Soundtrack location recording advice

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:21 pm

Cucco wrote:

I don't understand this... orchestras have "stayed with the conductor" for centuries before the click track and will continue to do so without it. It may just be the extreme competitive nature of the DC metro region's classical music scene (we have one of the most competitive scenes in the world thanks to the several military wind and string ensembles employing some of the nation's finest musicians all concentrated in one area). But...in this area, if you can't stick with the conductor - even if you vary a little...you're replaced (read: fired). A percussion colleague of mine was just fired from a mid-level symphony job because he played a couple measures off from the conductor. Granted it nearly disrupted the entire concert, but still....no grace periods for musicians.

Cheers -
J.

Ever play under a conductor with a soft down beat?

It isn't about players not being able to play with a conductor. It is about players playing with the film. Timings often need to be exact for hits in a film. Most folks doing sequences will calculate out a tempo to 3 decimal places to make this happen. Conductor's patterns aside, there is a bit of a lag when you watch- it may all be together in the group, but the conductor's lag plus the musician lag results in not playing to the film. Remember- it isn't about the art of playing in an orchestra. It is about making the music in the film work for whatever needs to happen. The way that happens in today's world is through the use of a click track.

Heck, on the video playback, you have streamers to warn the conductor what is coming up (tempo changes, end of cue, etc...).

Yes, in the old days, conductors free-conducted (and even on occasion today, you'll find somebody like John Williams doing that on a specific cue if he thinks it needs the freedom), but the music was very different than what you get today. In a world of sequencers, etc... you need things to be exact.

--Ben

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:24 pm

Thanks for the clarification...good points.

Of course, I do still feel the necessity to caution that most symphony (non-studio) musicians (specifically horns) will not take kindly to cans. But...I've made that statement a few times, so I guess I'm now officially beating a dead horse... Wink

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:46 pm

I can see that I was not clear-- I don't know anyone who LIKES to play with cans, but I don't know anyone that REFUSES to.

In thinking back to musicians I've worked with (which includes Chicago, Atlanta, and Nashville), I played with most of them in both scenarios-- on stage playing art music, and in the studio (some big and some small) playing sessions.

Today you will be hard-pressed to find a recording of non-concert repertoire (soundtrack, etc) that was done without cans. And I will stick with my original point-- in major cities most of the symphony players have done the headphone thing. "Headphones" is synonymous with extra money.

Rich

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:47 pm

I understand your point...I really do. But I do mean to say that many WILL refuse to play with them. Let's put it this way, some musicians do not need the supplemental income or care about studio sessions. If they get booked for a gig and they are required to use cans, they will call their subs. (and if their subs like their jobs, they won't turn the gig down.)

Take for example the following quote excerpted in its entirety from Mr. Hans Pizka:

Herr Pizka wrote:

The head phones are just used when synchronizing with
another soundtrack or to synchronize with a certain rhythm pattern & for (just before) rhythm changes.

It is nonsense to use it in classical music recordings
except for those, where a real ensemble does not exist & all voices are recorded separately & mixed together. We know about such "synthetic" results. There is no music in such recordings but they are just boring.

Why not trying another idea ? Perhaps doing an
intercontinental orchestral concert, where all work with earphones but playing in different countries & continens JUST ONLINE for listeners JUST ONLINE. The funny thing is it, they wood save the rent of the hall, the security personal, the music rental (who could check that), every listener could feed himself or herself with their preferred food & make food noise all over not disturbing any other listener, even going pee without disturbing the seat neighbour, even listening naked or in bed or on the toilet ..... Many advantages ... And nobody has to pay for the concert ticket .... (How about the living for the musicians)
-- ooops they do it from home anyway & earn their living by giving lessons - oops again, sorry, they teach online - etc. A world of music I would not like to live in.

I will allow Mr. Pizka's introduction to stand for itself:

Herr Pizka wrote:

I am 65 old, 50 years playing first horn
professionally, since 1967 with the Bavarian State Opera &
The Bavarian State Orchestra, one of the biggest orchestras
in the world & the oldest continuously existing orchestra in the western world (since 1530 !!), soloist, publisher, arranger, writer, musicologist, polyglott, passionate traveller in arts.

I think, despite the occasional broken english, Mr. Pizka's sentiment and sarcasm speak volumes. He is largely regarded as one of the world's finest hornplayers. No doubt he is a very opinionated person, but with his kind of experience, I certainly find no fault with his right to his opinions (and quite often agree with them).

I'm hoping to get Mr. Clevenger's take on this as well. In addition to being another of the greats in the horn world, he too is opinionated and outspoken and I dare say quite right in his outspoken nature.

Cheers -

Jeremy

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:06 pm

Cucco wrote:

I'm hoping to get Mr. Clevenger's take on this as well. In addition to being another of the greats in the horn world, he too is opinionated and outspoken and I dare say quite right in his outspoken nature.

I am REALLY looking forward to hearing Dale's thoughts, as I played contra-bass trombone with the CSO several times when he was playing (I was one of many "extra" trombone operators over the years) as well as on several sessions where I saw him........ wearing HEADPHONES.

Again, no one liked it, but we did it, and it was not for the sake of art, either. As for Bavaria-- I couldn't agree with Herr Pitzka more when he says:

Quote:

It is nonsense to use it in classical music recordings..

No one is suggesting the performing of classical music with a cue track, but I haven't heard any evidence to suggest that "studio" material has been recorded without cans in the last 30 years.

This is a digression that has gone far afield-- perhaps we could simply respond to Joe's questions?

Rich

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:07 pm

See...now I think we're splitting hairs here and frankly it's getting quite frustrating.

I'm curious to know which recordings you saw Mr. Clevenger (and yes, when referring to him in public, I will most definitely use "Mr. Clevenger." When cursing at him or speaking of him in private, perhaps not...) using headphones for any other reason than checking HIS specific balance.

What I'm trying to say here is simple...

if dealing with "studio" musicians, you won't have a problem with them wearing cans for clicks. However, since there aren't that many classical/soundtrack studios in the Philly area, I'm supposing Joe will be dealing with symphonic players (as he has already indicated).

I can tell you from personal experience....as a professional horn player only 3 hours outside the Philly area, that there is a slim chance of finding 4 to 5 horn players who are comfortable wearing cans while playing. A clarinet, a bone, a trumpet are all notable exceptions as these guys have likely played in studio sessions. Horn players though work entirely as a section. We don't breath without the others' approval. The commradery (sp?) in a horn section is unlike that in ANY other orchestral section and the headphones WILL hinder our communication.

In other words...I am NOT an isolated case. My suggestion TO JOE is simply that he be cautious in his approach to get "SYMPHONIC" players to wear headphones while playing. I guarantee you...piss off ONE of the hornplayers and you will gain the wrath of the entire section!

Differ in opinion all you would like, but don't tell me that I'm an isolated case. I KNOW the other horn players in the mid-atlantic area and I KNOW their preferences in this matter.

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:29 pm

"Yes They Will!!"
"No They Won't!!"

Is this really how this discussion is devolving?

If the client wants headphones, provide them.
If some musicians don't want to wear them, unplug them.
Bill the client and make money.

Everybody happy. What's the dilema here?

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:36 pm

I know you're not taking sides here and that's not how I'm interpreting it, but you are absolutely correct. Thank you.

My only point is that some won't want them. Period.

I don't need to be told that I'm wrong for my opinion or that I wouldn't keep a job without accepting others'.

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:34 am

Having worked in a Conservatory of Music for 26 years I can safely say that if given half a chance most classically trained musicians would prefer NOT to wear any headphones. If they do have to wear them they prefer the single muff design but most of them would prefer NO HEADPHONES as they are something alien to what they are use to hearing.

I have a good friend who is a classically trained cello player and played for years in a symphony orchestra. Now he makes a very good living by playing for sessions in Nashville and he has told me on more than one occasion that he can't stand to have headphones on but has to use them when he is in session. He had to relearn to play his cello with cans on and even practiced with them on so he could get use to the "sound" in the cans versus what he was hearing when he did not have them on. Playing with headphones on is somewhat similar to playing the piano with gloves on. Yes it can be done but the results may not be what you or the conductor are expecting.

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:55 pm

Sonarerec wrote:

This is a digression that has gone far afield-- perhaps we could simply respond to Joe's questions?

Rich

This conversation has gone way off topic... Please lets try to restore some civility (and less of the "I know more than you" attitutde) or the topic will be locked.

Sorry, but this forum is better than what is going on here...

--Ben

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:53 pm

You can close it if you'd like Ben...afterall, you are the boss here. But I don't think it's out of hand, I just think things get stupid sometimes.

Instead of people accepting someone's opinion around here, they always have to show that they have bigger balls (or better microphones) than everyone else - regardless of personal experiences. It's nothing new - it's always the same people arguing and always one person making a statement and a couple other individuals challenging that opinion until they think their point has been made (and trying to discredit the original poster).

Frankly I get sick and tired of it quite easily and when I leave the forum for 3 months at a time it's to regain some sanity from this constant one-upmanship.

I'm here to offer MY advice on subjects and to learn. That's it. I have nothing to prove to anyone here but it seems that others MUST make others realize just how important they are or just how special they are.

When I see people on the boards here making statements that only a certain kind of mic is usable for certain situations or a certain pre is the only obvious choice (and it just so happens to be the pre or mic that the person making the statement owns), I get reminded of the Hybrid episode of South Park where all of the people smell and enjoy their own farts.

Censor this post if you must (I will be VERY disappointed if you do) or close the post if you must. But I think it's genuinely stupid that I make a simple comment (which I back up with facts and quotes from seasoned veterans) and I get told that my opinions are wrong, I'm behind the times (which is odd, since I am an active performer) and that I couldn't keep a job with my attitude.

Look through all of the posts here. I've made no attacks at ANYONE, yet I was told that I wouldn't get a job in LA, I was behind the times, and not in touch with the music scene in "Major" cities (of which I guess DC is not one.)

Absurd and sad.

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:29 pm

And with that, my friends, we are done here. If you have something constructive to add, I'll make sure it gets up on to the board.

--Ben

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:40 am

While they're all saying "the comfy chair"...

Joe, one of the best headphone distribution systems I've seen was developed by Simon Leadley for Trackdown Scoring Stage in Sydney, Australia.

He uses the old transformer line method (75V or 100V, I'm not sure) initially developed for driving large number of installed speakers from a single power amplifier. In his design the headphone sends drive power amplifiers that in turn drive a number of transformers (their primary coils are all wired in parallel across the amplifier's output). Each transformer drives one set of headphones, or possibly more. This allows him to connect many, many headphones to the power amplifier without any problems. Plugging more or less headphones into the system makes little difference to the level into each pair.

I am not sure how relevant it is to your original question, but I always thought it was a very cool and robust idea... It is costly because transformers are involved, but if I remember correctly he had most of the bits and pieces hanging around while the place was being built and realised it would make a fine headphone distribution system.

When I'm teaching audio classes in Sydney there are times when I want/need to provide a headphone mix to 24 or more students at once. In this situation I use two or three of the Deadringer headphone boxes, mentioned earlier on this thread. They make one that has four individual output channels, each with three headphone sockets (one on the front, two on the back) and volume and tone controls. Each channel also has access to an auxiliary input with individual mix control, ideal for blending in a click at different levels. You could provide a main stereo mix for all, and by using each output channel's volume and aux mix controls, adjust the overall volume and mix/click balance for each output.

One of these low cost boxes can drive up to 12 cans with reasonable versatility. And they have a 'thru' connection on the rear so they can be daisychained.

They also make one that has 8 output channels, each with three outputs IIRC, but only level controls. I haven't played with that one, but it's an interesting thought.

None of those boxes are too rugged, however. I find there is always one or two jacks that are broken, so you'd need some redundancy. They use those deceitful jacks that look like they're screwed in with a metal nut, when in fact it is simply a metal cover over a plastic insert thing, and comes out a bit too easily.

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:57 am

Just got an email from this guy and though it might be something that JoeH could use.

GEAR FOR SALE
Call (705) 431-8800 or
Email:startmusic@rogers.com

CUSTOM HEADPHONE SYSTEM CALL

32 x 16 x 6 ROLL AROUND STANDS
8 STEREO CHANNELS WITH 2 BAND EQ, BALANCE & LEVEL CONTROL
EACH STATION HAS 2 INTEGRAL HEADPHONE AMPLIFIERS

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:31 am

Well, it's time to revive this thread, and as promised, reveal a few things about the session, the client, etc.

Amazingly, this project did finally get off the ground, and is now completed and will be out in time for the '07 holidays. (At least that's what the studio - Warner Bros. Animation - says...)

The working/temp classical soundtrack for the storyboard had been assembled from "other" classical CD performances of this work, which the animators made the movie from. Since it was too expensive to buy the rights outright, re-recording the whole thing was actually a better solution, at least $$$-wise. Since LA and NYC were out of the question logistically and financially, the project ended up in Philadelphia, which was (in in hindsight) a VERY good fit for all involved.

We did indeed go with (almost) 60 single-ear headsets for the players, (an expanded chamber orchstra) while the conductor alternated between a single and double-ear set, depending on what he was listening for. Every player had 15-20 feet of cable leading to a box near their chair with a volume control for each set, so there were no problems with anyone needing more - or less - headphone level.

FWIW, not one person complained or had a problem with the click track per se; it was understood when they took the gig that this was going to be the case. (So, if you signed on to play the gig, you knew what you were in for.) Many players knew the work in their sleep anyway; they do it every year at Christmas time here with the PA Ballet.

The session was one full day of tech/setup and working with the conductor (Dirk Brasse, from Brussels) ahead of time, then three actual recording sessions over two days to record three 18-minute "reels" of music for this animated 50 minute cartoon from WB. The music was entirely selections from Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker (not in sequence from the ballet, however) and was performed & recorded in a large church in Center City Philadelphia, during regular business hours. (My reNOVAtor tools got a nice workout in post!)

Picture & midi sync (with clicktrack output to the cans) was with an iMAC dual pentium running Digital Performer 5.0, and audio recording was with Sequoia V8 running 22 tracks of audio; 20 mics, w/click and SMPTE. Sync was with MOTU's A/V syncronizer, although we hardly needed much of a lock with today's DAW stability, etc. Most of the cuts were 4-5 minutes max., many much shorter.

Perhaps the hardest part for people who don't do this every day in scoring stages was to wrap one's mind around the concept of click track performance itself (and to get the technology to work properly, of course!). These were anywhere from 15 seconds to 5 minute cuts, each with a two measure countdown and subsequent click track that sometimes sped up or slowed down.

The real challenge was to play the parts correctly (and musically!), stay in sync with the click & the conductor, and still (in Dirk's words) try to make some "ART" out of it. Everyone had a blast, and truly rose to the occasion.

Each cut was rehearsed a few times until it felt right, then the conductor did several takes until both he and myself were happy with what we got. (his criteria was of course more musical, while mine was often about dodging busses, trucks, and street noises from outside.)

After the sessions ended on a Tuesdsay afternoon, I had the rest of the week to mix it all (surround & stereo) pick or edit the best "Take" of each cue, and drop it/assemble it along the time line of each 18 minute reel. I used Quicktime Pro to convert the Avid2 MOV reels (grrrr) to something a little more manageable for Sequoia to handle, and the rest was a breeze.

The following Monday, at 6 a.m. (just as I was leaving for vacation), the Hard disk and DVD-Rs containing the music & raw materials was waiting for FEDex to come pick it up and wisk with away to CA and the movie studio. (Hey, no pressure, right?! Rolling Eyes

)

There's more to tell if anyone wants to know more details. I'm told it's now completed and on to replication; everyone at WB is happy, and it will be out by the holiday season.

It's probably the hardest/biggest/complex thing I've worked on in a long time, and there were more than a few moments of white-knuckle panic and terror on everyone's part. (Thank god for cell phones, good coffee, and great tech support....including Ben!!! BIG THANKS, dude! Wink

)

I've been away from these forums for several weeks now, but I hope that now that the dust is settling and life will return to something resembling normal. Rrrrrrrrright!