minor chords attract teenagers - what else ?

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:29 pm

I was gonna make a bunch of smart-assed remarks involving teenagers and what attracts them other than minor chord angst, but since we've moved this into the realm of readin,ritein,an rithmatic I thunk I outta respond.

First a history of Dog. "Yeah, I used ta read dat stuff but it screwed up my feel. " ( this has to be so surreal to a bunch of us!! mainly cause it feels TRUE)....Anyway, I played in band and orchestra as a wee laddie, clarinet (2nd chair....sue me I'm lazy) tuba (first chair...no one else wanted the job) The occasional tympani part (ever notice that these are back by the tuba section?) and really ANY instrument I could get a week or so with and could get a scale or two out of.

Its not an ego thing....it just is what it is.

In one of my college trys ( sue me again, girls like college guys in rock bands) I played in the Jazz Lab Band. I was, by this time, a seasoned pro player. I played bass, mostly, but when I went to audition for the Lab Band, the instructor asked me not to try for the bass but for the guitar. This was a Lab Band which didnt even have a guitar chart, and he had a young kid coming in on scholarship for the bass. So I did. Loved it.

My point.....I knew how to read. Once I read the part ONCE I never looked at it again. Ever. It got so I could simply hear the part and reproduce it. Busted many times in orchestra rehearsals....."Mr. Dog, could you please give us the first two bars after 39 on your sheet please......" "Uh, I dont have my sheet with me......uh .....sir...." "Thank you Mr. Dog. Could you please wait out in the hall till class is dismissed..."

But being in the Lab Band WITHOUT charts and simply relying on my knowledge of how things go and blending it with the music being presented, brought me to a new realization and freed my mind from the boundaries of the written note.

Anybody buying this? Didnt think so. Yeah sue me... I'm lazy and just never used that part of my vocabulary as it related to music.

I dont practice either. Lazy.

So...Trained as a musician formally. Learned as an ear player. Liked it better. Forgot how to read. Oh dont get me wrong...I could muddle through a chart with some time involved but I'm never gonna be in that field of expertise so why bother.

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT>>> Kids, dont listen to your old Uncle Dog...Stay in school and learn about how music works!

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:53 pm

[quote="JoeH
Reading music & knowing the theory helps diverse musicians connect much more quickly in professional environments. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Sure, you can take a week to learn a band's repertoire by memory - all in order to play one pickup gig with them, or you can read from a book in a 3 hr rehearsal the day of the gig. (In Jazz, pop, etc., plenty of folks do just that!) And what happens the night that your lead vocalist suddenly decides to drop his or her signature hit song (The one with all those complex changes) a half step lower, because their vocal chords aren't cutting it anymore? Want to tell them you don't know the theory involved in THAT process?.[/quote]

there it is.... i can walk into any "jam session" and given a few minutes to collect ideas come up with a set... or sit down at my keys with their book and play with pretty much anyone...

also one of the things that bothers me is the idea that theory imposes rules to the point of stffling creativity.... the idea that you dont play music you construct little "boxes"... nuthin could be further from the trueth... think of it like learning any other language... (and yes it is a language...to quote stravinski "music is a language too specific for words...") what you can say in french is determined by your vocabulary.... similarly theory doesnt tell me what to play it simply increases my options....

so make up your mind... do you want to "sound french" or speak it????

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:09 pm

Some great points all around. I totally agree that understanding theory expands the possibilities.

You can't break the rules till you know them. And if you do it without knowing them it's by accident. But, if you can knowingly break the rules at will and get away with it, hey, now there's a neat trick.

I only wish I could read as well as I hear. It takes me an hour(usually more) to get through a page of score. I know the notes on the staff but applying it to a guitar is another thing all together. Piano, much simpler to understand.

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:17 pm

cucuccho Wrote:

Quote:

Hey JoeJoeMan...

1st, it's not TOO hard to spell my name right. At worst, you could highlight and hit ctrl-c then ctrl-v.

2nd, I stand firm by my statement. The following artists all are "influencial" (arguably the MOST influential of the 20th century) and all of them had music training to some degree.

I didn't want to turn this whole topic around but I was just bringing up a point. Whether somone has formal musical training or not, reguarding their merit wasn't my point, or concern, I was just making a point.
A couple other names that come to mind, I could be wrong but I don't think they studied Bach or Baytuvan
Steve Ray Vaughn
Albert King - grand father of rock/blues guitar
Bob Dylan - (some already mentioned)
Hank Williams
Robert Johnson
Bill Monroe (father of bluegrass)
Jimmy Rogers - father of country music
BB King - chairman of the board
Woody Guthrie
Earl Scruggs - single handed defined bluegrass banjo - ask Bela

Someone help me out....did Louie Armstrong have any formal training ?

And probably the father of rock and roll Chuck Berry, did he have and training ? Obviously he had some, he wrote "Roll Over Beethoven"

Personaly I don't have an opinion one way or the other as far formal music training, whatever.
I do know one thing I coulda' used some more formal training in spelling, right...cucucho or however you say it....

cucucho....."Freddy Mercuri" ? I think his legacey will be more in line with bad fashion (nice pants) and didn't he play with the Cowsills, he did have a nice chest though (did he wax or was that nature?). So I guess I see your point

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:34 pm

JoeJoeMan, I think the point has been proven that it can work either way, but it's never a bad thing to have as much training (or simply knowledge) as you can get your hands on. There's no glory in being needlessly stupid or misinformed.

As for Louis Armstrong, it's rather pointless to question the credentials of someone who virtually helped INVENT a genre. What's the point here?

As for your spelling, I can't quite tell if you're simply trying to be funny, or are just an *sshole with your continued, deliberate misspelling of Jeremy's last name. (It's a fairly easily spelled Italian name. Is there some kind of problem here that the moderators should be looking into???)

Most of us enjoy the intelligent, back and forth sharing of ideas and information, in funny and creative ways. Those who don't grasp this concept don't seem to last too long, if you catch my drift.

Not sayin'....just sayin'......

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:17 pm

i've always found it ridiculous that people take a few greats out of context in order to justify not doing their homework.... the question is NOT whether SRV or (insert here) made it without... the question is whether they or more importantly YOU would have benefitted from study... and the answer is unequivicably yes....

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:40 pm

JoeH wrote:

Many classical musicians (not all of course!) sight-read only, and cannot - even with a gun to their heads - play off-the-cuff or improvise by ear. (Tell them they've got the solo in the middle section of a twelve bar blues in E, and they're liable to sh*t a brick, asking you: well, where's the score?!?!?!)

Ha...you aren't kidding! One of the better conductors I've worked with would RAG on our strings all the time. He would ask them..."so, when did you guys stop knowing how to improvise? Shortly after Vivaldi died?"

Just for kicks when I was in college (majoring in horn performance), I took 2 semesters of Jazz Improv and a semester of Jazz theory. You should have seen the looks on the trumpets and saxophone players' faces when a horn player showed up axe-in-hand for jazz class. What was even funnier - my bassoon playing friend did the same. That was an interesting couple of semesters! It sure was fun though. Talk about putting Bach to practical use!

Every once in a while, I'll do some improv work just to keep it interesting and keep my jazz chops up, but not so much any more. I also had the chance to study a few times with Thomas Bacon at various master classes and symposiums...what a wealth of jazz-horn knowledge! (And a damn fine player too!)

Anyway...just thought I'd share. It's always funny to talk about classical musicians and improv.

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:03 pm

i've been reading this topic for awhile now, and just want to add my thoughts about it.
i'm drumming in a top40 cover band. unlike our guitarist and keyboard player i never had any musical training, only as a normal subject in school. i always hated music theory (like any theory) and never had good marks in tests (though i always had an A in my school reports cause i played in the band)

in our band practices the guitarist and keyboard player often throw strange words at each other, like "e7diminished" or "gsus9withanaovere" or whatever (i doubt these examples exist, so nevermind). mysteriously they do understand each other and everything sounds good. i do know basic notation and know where my keys are on the guitar or keyboard. i can also tell the difference between major and minor, but that's about it. it would take me hours to play something from a sheet.

BUT although i don't really have a clou about music theory i do understand music. i'm not only a drummer, i also play keyboards and guitar, and i sing. i'm writing songs, although i couldn't tell you the names of the chords i'm playing. by not being able to read scores i have very well trained ears, and that's much more important than knowing the names of chords or play a piece of music just by reading some dots and lines.
it can be helpful though.

it's certainly good to know theory and to be able to read sheets, especially for session musicians, but the ability to do that doesn't make you a good musician. it's the ears that make a good one. and the feeling that makes a great one.
i'm sure many or most classical musicians could play a piece of music they've never heard before off a sheet without mistakes, but would it be a great performance? i don't think so.
without scores you have to know the piece by heart, and we all know that's crucial for a great performance with a lot of feeling.
btw, in my band we never use scores at gigs at all. it would be a boring, lame ass show with everybody standing behind music stands staring at some paper. we do 4 to 7 hour shows by heart and that's why we get booked. not because we read well...

as with everything else, it's always good to know the backgrounds, but it's not really necessary. but like i said before, it can be helpful.
i am happy that i'm "only" the drummer of the band and don't have to deal with these things. i am one of the lazy kinda guys that never saw the point to it. but i do often arrange background vocals in my band cause i have a good understanding of harmonics and find the right notes faster than our guitarist, who has a degree in music.
i can write music without knowing what chords i play. i don't give a ***. if i like it, it's fine. i don't like it, i try something else.

oh, ... i did find another musician who was very influential in modern music and had a lotta hits in the last 30 years. phil collins. and he still can't read sheets.
now tell me he doesn't know what he's doing!

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:16 pm

how do you delete a post ?

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:18 pm

JoeH wrote:

Quote:

JoeJoeMan, I think the point has been proven that it can work either way, but it's never a bad thing to have as much training (or simply knowledge) as you can get your hands on. There's no glory in being needlessly stupid or misinformed.

As for Louis Armstrong, it's rather pointless to question the credentials of someone who virtually helped INVENT a genre. What's the point here?

As for your spelling, I can't quite tell if you're simply trying to be funny, or are just an *sshole with your continued, deliberate misspelling of Jeremy's last name. (It's a fairly easily spelled Italian name. Is there some kind of problem here that the moderators should be looking into???)

Most of us enjoy the intelligent, back and forth sharing of ideas and information, in funny and creative ways. Those who don't grasp this concept don't seem to last too long, if you catch my drift.

I really don't care if you someone has musical training or not, great if they do, great if they don't. If they can play - wonderful. I wasn't taking sides one way or the other. Just making a counter point to Jeremy's orginal point, with reference to training or Bach, whatever that orginal point was. Perhaps you are upset that I trumped his orginal point.
Whether I can spell or not, or if am just having fun is no excuse on your part to be calling someone an *sshole, So I won't even stoop to an exchange on that, only to say that perhaps your point is correct and the moderator should be looking into something (ie. your reprehensible behavior).

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:02 pm

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MODERATOR<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

" Reprehensible behavior will only be tolerated if it is in response to posts by JP,aquasquid, likwidstoody-os, or some other jackass. Any other outbreaks will be squelched at the source."

Cucco is spelled like this C U C C O .. Learn it. use it. And stop being reprehensible.

I HAVE SPOKEN. Back to the argument.....er....discussion.

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:24 pm

Moving back two squares...

bigtree wrote:

Are there other interesting sounds or progressions that are either age or gender related ?

I don't shiv a get whether you girls wanna' keep debating bach's virginity... go fer it.

The odd thing is that no matter the era, despite the angst, modernization of culture, or whatever... the thing that seems to consistantly attract teenies is the vocal melody. Whether us old farts like the melody, whether it meets conventional music theory, etc.

What makes a song popular with teenagers is the ability to be sung by the majority of the people. The simpler the melody the better. If it's a minor chord structure... the better. With my kids generation and the newest batch of teenies... it's a back to basics 4/4. With an emphasis on harmonies and a big LF component.

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:31 pm

Thanks Davedog..........................

Back to the dicussion...............
So did Louie Armstrong have any formal training ?
I seem to remember, he was given a horn and tought to play in the black marching bands of the time. I get the feeling that any training he did get was pretty limited and not formal or 'classical' in nature

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:09 pm

For the record, JoeJoeMan, I said it I unclear what your intention was by deliberately mispelling Jeremy's last name again and again; it sure seemed like it could be interpreted either way. (I guess you showed ME, alright!) YOU know what you wrote, and what you intended. Now we do, too.

Personally, ouzo77, I wouldn't be bragging about not knowing the difference between a major and minor chord, in a Top 40 Cover Band, but that's just me. I'm glad you're happy and life's good for you. That's great.

And if you think it's impossible to deliver an honest, heartfelt performance from a printed sheet of music, I can't even begin to explain it to you. In a way, you're guilty of the same kind of elitism and name calling as the so-called "Schooled" players might direct at players like yourself.

There's really no point in attacking either process. They both work for some, but I'm always on the side of experience and education, whether it's self-taught at the school of hard knocks, or Curtis, Berkley or Julliard.

Let's talk again in twenty years. Thumbs Up

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:08 pm

JoeH wrote:

Personally, ouzo77, I wouldn't be bragging about not knowing the difference between a major and minor chord, in a Top 40 Cover Band, but that's just me. I'm glad you're happy and life's good for you. That's great.

And if you think it's impossible to deliver an honest, heartfelt performance from a printed sheet of music, I can't even begin to explain it to you. In a way, you're guilty of the same kind of elitism and name calling as the so-called "Schooled" players might direct at players like yourself.

first of all, i didn't say i can't tell the difference between minor and major, that's one of the few things i can. also in a top 40 band!
and i think there's nothing wrong with playing in a top 40 band. after playing 20 years in bands with own music and paying alotta money to be able to do it, it's nice to actually earn some. but that's a different discussion... btw, i am happy with it, and life's wonderful. i hope yours is, too!

i've also never said, that it's impossible to play "an honest, heartfelt performance from a printed sheet of music". i just said if you play a piece of music you've never heard before from a sheet it's not as good as it would be if you knew it by heart. i'd rather see somebody playing with closed eyes than somebody who's staring at a piece of paper.

also i never said you don't need musical education at all, i was even pointing out that it can be very helpful! i was just trying to say you can be as good a musician, even a better one, without having lessons in music theory or your instrument. for some, like me, it works, and they can express themselves musically, without education. it has nothing to do with being misinformed or stupid, like you wrote in a previous post. or do i have to have a degree in engineering to drive a car?
i liked it better to listen to other musicians and watch what they do, than learning how to interpret dots on a sheet. it's more fun learning an instrument that way. and isn't it about fun in the end? and i told you i was lazy.
but i do understand, that it's something many "educated" musicians can't accept, cause they've spent many hours and money for their education, and others who are equally good musicians or even better ones didn't. (i'm not saying i'm better than you. i don't know you or your abilities. but i'm not saying i'm not as good as you just because you're musically educated, either)

so please read the posts more carefully before quoting things that were never said (or written)! i'm sorry if my thoughts about the subject (or me playing in a top 40 band) offended you in any way. don't forget, i am uneducated...

AND i've found another "uneducated" musician who had a huge impact on modern music: kurt cobain.
admittedly not the best guitarist, but nirvana started a big revolution in rock music and did write good songs. and i'm sure he didn't shoot himself, because he didn't know the names of the chords he played... Confused

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