Ribbon Mic Mini-forum

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:46 am

Jeremy, that's a lovely, wonderful sounding clip, and I often refer to that mentally when thinking about ribbons, mic placment, etc. To me, that's how those kinds of things SHOULD sound. Well done, indeed. I was really impressed the first time I heard this one. My experiences with ribbons to date are similar to yours, they're not great for EVERYTHING. (And althought they're fantastic on vocals up close, I'd NEVER take my RE84 out on a live gig, period.)

Moonbaby, please don't EVER feel intimidated to make those kinds of honest, real-world comments. (Kurt is longggggg gone.) Your comments and experiences are every bit as valid and important. Those are exactly the kinds of things I'm interested in finding out. (YES, I love my DPA 4006 TLs, Neumans, etc., NO I wouldn't hesitate for a second trying a Cascade or Apex ribbon (instead of something higher end like an AEA or Royer) if budget and applications warranted it.)

What I'm hoping to generate here is feedback about experiences - pro and con - about this type of mic, and their manufacturers. Product support is good to know as well, ditto for long-term use, reliability, re-saleability, etc. We've got tons and tons of Condenser mics out there now, far too many to keep track of, and it's looking like Ribbons have made quite a comeback, or at least a start.

And David, yes, I KNEW you were going to be curious about the mic under the piano...hehehe. (I've mic'd many a harpsichord this way, as well, but perhaps Jeremey has his own explanation. Wink

)

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:03 pm

Think of it this way David - what part of the piano makes the sound? Yes, initially it's the vibration of the string due to the hammer. However, it is amplified and colored by the sound board.

The sound board sends signals both out of the top of the instrument (which are easily affected by the placement of the lid) as well as the bottom of the instrument (which is not affected at all by the lid but most definitely by the floor).

By placing a mic or multiple mics below the instrument, you are essentially picking up the soundboard alone minus the strings and percussive aspect. You can really capture quite a lovely piano sound this way.

In fact, the first time I had ever done this was as part of a live recording of a university orchestra where a piano soloist was performing Beethoven's 5th Piano Concerto. I had set up a stereo mic configuration on a stand on the front of the stage roughly 4 feet away from the piano and aiming in. During sound check, I was very disappointed by the sound I was getting. A lot of bleed from the orchestra and a very ugly piano sound.

Well...while I wasn't paying attention, one of the sound guys working on site (the stage crew) took my mics off of the boom (thinking that the boom was theirs) and set them on the floor under the piano to avoid damage to the mics.

I came back to my listening position to hear more rehearsal and the piano sounded noticably better! I was quite impressed. Of course, putting them on a stand and minimizing the early reflections from the floor made it much better, but nonetheless, I was quite impressed. I subsequently recorded the entire concerto that way and it worked quite well. The overheads picked up the orchestra very well and also provided enough "sparkle" to be decidedly Beethoven while the body and soul of the instrument (a 9' concert Steinway) rang beautifully through the "under" mics.

Anyway...long story short...I do it because it works and it sounds good. You can add a LOT of depth to the piano sound by doing this one little trick.

Cheers!

Jeremy

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:20 pm

Not to get sidetracked on Jeremy's excellent tip, but I've found similar little things that can make a diffence. For example, on some larger concert grand pianos, I sometimes mic the tail as well, on a separate track, in case I need it later. For solo piano recording, it's not unusual to use five mics - two stereo up closer, one on the tail, and two omni' outriggers/flanks, all mixed to taste, of course.

And very often, if it's a situation where they don't want mic's showing, (on camera, etc.) going on the DL isn't bad at all, in a pinch. I mentioned doing a harpsichord this way, and amazingly, it works quite well, too, ESP with all the plucking the mechanical noise inherent in a standard harpsi. It can be quite a mess sonically, if you have to get in too close.......hey, there's another good reason to try a ribbon on a harpsichord - more meat, less flack, er...pluck, er....whatever.... Wink

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:43 pm

I'm not a fan of the "under piano" sound. Used it a couple times when I've had to, but I just don't like the lack of detail and several other issues (like tonal balance, etc...)

What I do, however, is a somewhat similar thing. I'll place the mic in pretty close to the instrument (perhaps a foot from the curve) and I'll aim the mic at the lid. You still get some of the direct sound and a good tonal balance, but you don't end up getting quite as much of an in your face kind of piano sound from the mics being close. Advantage of close mics- very little orchestra.

Also, depending on where your main pair and flanks are, you'll be picking up a lot of piano bleed in your orchestral mics.

--Ben

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:06 pm

Anybody got a clip of some under-piano mics?

Oh yeah, we're talking about ribbons! Very Happy

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:11 pm

Well...the clip I posted earlier includes under piano mic....

Ben - I agree...when used by themselves, they are WAY too...hmmm...muddy? no...indistinct - perhaps. However, when brought up just for taste, they work quite well. Adding them to a good pair of overheads (orchestra and piano) or a good main pair (piano and soloist) or even just multiple arrays (solo piano). It's always something I put out when recording but not always something I use when mixing.

I would gladly get you a copy of the Beethoven but it's on a different hard drive in storage. Unless I have a REALLY good reason to go get it and hook it in, I just don't see it happening...sorry... (I vacuum seal them with dessicants in the packaging and put them in self-storage when they're done. It's a pain to pull them out.)

J.

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:29 pm

I purchased an Apex 210 as well and so far, what I have tried with it has sounded pretty good to my ears. I would agree that it definetely ads some colour to the sound, but it is a nice colouring IMO. I haven't used it for any orchestral recording and whatnot, so I don't know how well it performs in that regard. Micing a guitar amp with a SM57 and the 210 provided a really fat sound with the SM57 picking up more of the treble and the 210 giving it a bit of a fuller sound with more of the mids and low end. I've done some scratch track vocals with it and they sounded really good as well and it seemed to suit the singer's voice quite well. It works good as either a room mic/overhead/kick drum mic (with proper placement) for drums. I don't have anything to compare it to in the ribbon mic department since it is the first one I have used, but I am enjoying it's uniqueness in my mic "locker" thus far. On a side note, I have actually been pretty suprised and happy with the results I have achieved from all of the Apex mics I have purchased.

Have a good one,
Wyatt

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:39 pm

OK then. I´ll put up what it sometimes sounds like. SF24 + Sound Device 722. This is a rehearsal and someone is talking in the church. Mics are far back. It is a rehearsal and I am somewhere there playing trombone.
http://hem.bredband.net/trombonisten/SF24.mp3

You can hear the very distinct positioning in the stereo picture. Sorry but the soloist far to the right.

Different church, different music, same orchestra though (nominally, it is project by project). Same setup of mic + recorder.
http://hem.bredband.net/b121263/freude.mp3

Note that only purpose was to document, actual recording was with quite a few more mics.

Day after freude above. Different church. Several other mics used, this is only the SF24 as main mic. (Millenia HV3 + Lavry Blue). Sorry for lower quality of mp3 encoding.
http://hem.bredband.net/b121263/freude2.mp3

All of the recordings has something talking for them, but none of them really are useful to my ears.

Gunnar

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:32 am

Made some simultaneous recordings last weekend with an M160/M130 MS pair (AEA TRP) and Schoeps MK4 and MK21 close pairs (Hardy M1) on string quartet and violin/piano works. Live concert without a good sound check, so the recordings are not ideal Sad

, but I'll post samples this weekend for comparison anyway. I was planning to do MS (Beyer) vs MS (Schoeps) comparisons, but decided I wanted a little different sound from the Schoeps on this one.

Stay tuned...

Michael

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:14 am

All of the recordings has something talking for them, but none of them really are useful to my ears.

I would have to agree with you there, Gunnar. Don't get me wrong, these are lovely recordings, but I can hear what you're talking about, along with a few things of my own that I noticed.... I do think, though, that this is a wonderful start to a solid centerpiece of a recording. Soloists, etc. do need a helping hand in some areas.

Overall, though, the detail is quite wonderful and warm, of course. I just don't think they're enough, by themselves for this sort of thing. Nothing seems overloaded or overpowered, though, and that's always a good thing. Things seem to sit well in their place, but again, I'm sure there are things you'd want to adjust (soloists, choir, brass, etc.) and this pair of SF-24s alone are not doing the job. (Nor would one expect them to, in these kinds of situations...)

All in all, though, I'm really enjoying what's being offered in this mini-forum. Hope to hear more from folks!

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:16 am

How do you like your TRP, Michael?

I have an early version here for review, and it's really quite wonderful...amazing gain, esp for ribbons, etc.

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:24 pm

I'm interested to hear any soundfiles or opinions with the
Coles 4040, and C&T Proscenium and Soundstage. Also
I'm wondering how hiss and hum free these high end passive
ribbons are compared to the Royer and Sigma active ones.

Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:42 am

As promised (or perhaps threatened Wink

) here are some recordings of the Beyer M130/M160 mics as an MS pair (using some Schoeps mics as a comparitive reference) to give people a feel for them as a main pair. This is not a scientific comparision, given the differences in pattern, setup, etc., but I think it does show the character of these fairly reasonably priced, and well established ribbons.

These recordings were made at a chamber music concert. Two of the selections are for violin and piano and the third for string quartet. Both sets of mics were on the same stand, effectively in the same position relative to the performers.

The Beyers were run through an AEA TRP preamp with gain at 74db. (I'll let you form your own opinions about the noise floor of this setup. I think it's fine for this purpose.) The Schoeps were CMC5 bodies with MK4 or MK21 capsules (as indicated) run into a Hardy M1 at 44db gain. Both mic pres were feeding a 4-channel Benchmark AD2404-96 A/D. No processing other than decoding the MS (as needed in software) and conversion to MP3. Levels are reasonably matched, but not perfectly.

[I am posting both MP3 and some MP3Pro files. Let me know if you all can decode MP3Pro, since they are quite a bit smaller...]

Tchaikovsky, Melodie, Opus 42, No. 3

Schoeps MK4, 60 degrees at 21 cm

http://mdemeyer.sublymerecords.com/Tchaikovsky_MK4_60deg_21cm_pro.mp3 (MP3Pro)

Beyer M130/M160 MS

http://mdemeyer.sublymerecords.com/Tchaikovsky_M130-M160_MS_pro.mp3 (MP3Pro)

Grieg, Sonata No. 3 in C minor, Opus 45 (Second Movement)

Schoeps MK21, 60 degrees at 21 cm

http://mdemeyer.sublymerecords.com/Grieg_MK21_60deg_21cm_pro.mp3 (MP3Pro)
http://mdemeyer.sublymerecords.com/Grieg_MK21_60deg_21cm.mp3 (MP3)

Beyer M130/M160 MS

http://mdemeyer.sublymerecords.com/Grieg_M130-M160_MS_pro.mp3 (MP3pro)
http://mdemeyer.sublymerecords.com/Grieg_M130-M160_MS.mp3 (MP3)

Brindel, Music for Strings #3 (String Quartet Version)

Schoeps MK21, 60 degrees at 30 cm

http://mdemeyer.sublymerecords.com/Brindel_MI_MK21_60deg_30cm_pro.mp3 (MP3Pro, first movement)
http://mdemeyer.sublymerecords.com/Brindel_MII_MK21_60deg_30cm.MP3 (MP3, second movement)

Beyer M130/M160 MS

http://mdemeyer.sublymerecords.com/Brindel_MI_M130-M160_MS_pro.mp3 (MP3Pro, first movement)
http://mdemeyer.sublymerecords.com/Brindel_MII_M130-M160_MS.MP3 (MP3, second movement)

The Tchaikovsky and Grieg are played by different musicians - same piano, different violin.

Comments always welcome.

Michael

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:39 am

I get the impression that there's a big difference
in price/quality between the Schoeps and Beyers.

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:11 am

I haven't done a direct comparison between the two, but I never hesitate to use the Beyers along side the Schoeps. In the case of the the clip I posted above, I did actually run a Schoeps CMC6 MK4 beside the beyer on the soprano's voice. We both agreed that the beyer was the clear winner on her voice.

I think it's always a matter of choice and differences.

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