This is a great thread. Some observations:
My parents taught our family that going to church served more than one purpose. It was not only to learn the word of God, but to have the personal interconnections with other PEOPLE-know their needs, their problems, their souls. To communicate eye-to-eye, person-to person.
You cannot achieve this through a video monitor and a Visa card.
I have recently been getting more and more into the church production
business. On Saturday nights, I mix at a 2500-seat non-denominational church. Big board, big-budget sound. When the NFL season starts up, that Saturday night service is packed, overflowing. The Sunday 11 am service drops like a rock. Everybody wants to be ready for the Jacksonville Jaguars' game, they act like they want to get church "out of the way".
God is taking a backseat to the NFL!!!
On Sunday mornings, I have a sunrise service on the beach, under a gazebo. Rain or shine a good 150 turn out for that. Average age:60+.
There is always some sort of outreach/food bank project underway,
always a friendly smile and a handshake. They've learned that the personal contact, caring, and giving is what it's all about.
Then I'm off down the road for a couple of services in a very affluent golf community. We are currently holding services in a middle school while they are building a new facility. Full sound/light/video production for a couple of services that are barely 100 each. There was a call for volunteers to be onhand to set up the "show" (screens, speakers, etc).
That lasted a couple of weeks. But because these "upwardly mobile" folks don't want to get their hands dirty, they opted to up my rate and have me provide the extra personnel instead. Now I feel guilty that I'm profitting from peoples' unwillingness to personally contribute to the church service.
Once again, the lack of human involvement. It makes me question the faith at times...
BobRogers Recording Org Pro Audio Group
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
Posts: 1092
Location: Blacksburg, VA
How can a church possibly justify spending $$$ on a PA system when there are people going hungry?
If you are really serious about that question I'd bet there is a library in Sheffield with a long shelf of books examining it. The debate goes back to at least the middle ages (remember "The Name of The Rose"?) Obviously I don't agree that it is necessary that a church or it's member must commit themselves to poverty in order to follow Christian theology. While a lot of people claim to believe it, I don't see the Franciscans having a big shortage of sackcloth robes.
Quote:
I suggest you give the money to charity, and tell the pastor to speak up a bit. If its good enough for jesus's sermon on the mount, surely its good enough for you?
I can stand before God knowing that I did not waste money, I did not sway people to buy something other than what was right for the job, given the criteria and budget at that time. We Christians are called to be "good stewards" or good managers of what we are given. We are not to spend foolishly. There are many designers and churches that swap gear like it is a fashionable textile. They buy the latest and greatest for bragging rights. I am not that type of guy. I know that money could be better spent on reaching/helping people.
We have done both built and equiped a "comfortable" church with pretty decent media production capabilities and yet we support the needy. There may be some churches that do not but of the ones I have attended none of them have disregarded those in need. To their ablilities they have helped out those in need.
The "church" (in the business sense) is changing just like everything else now days. Yet even out of church it has been pretty standard that about 25% of the people do the work while the rest of society reaps the benifits. The churches I have attended have generaly been higher than the average. I cannot speak for all of them though.
When my life fell apart a few years back it was the people in the church that helped me put it all back together. There are a lot of loving and caring people in churchs some of which will help a person out even knowing they are going to take advantage of them. Unfortunatly the only church people you hear about in the media are people like Jimmy Swaggart and those who have messed up.
This was not the purpose of this thread though so I will stop.
IIRs Recording Org Pro Audio Group
Joined: Oct 10, 2005
Posts: 450
Location: Sheffield, UK
You don't support ALL the needy though do you? Like the people with serious degenerative illnesses that could potentially be cured using stem cell treatments.
Or the women that need a safe & clean abortion.
Or the gay community.
Or any other of the minority groups that have been repressed and persecuted in the name of your god.
Kent L T wrote:
There are a lot of loving and caring people in churchs
Yes I'm sure that is true. There are a lot of loving and caring people outside churches also. The only difference between them is the ones inside the churches have been conned into believing that their natural inherent goodness does not belong to them, and that they need to rent it from a priest.
sheet Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2003
Posts: 886
Location: Kansas City, KS
You don't support ALL the needy though do you? Like the people with serious degenerative illnesses that could potentially be cured using stem cell treatments.
Or the women that need a safe & clean abortion.
Or the gay community.
Or any other of the minority groups that have been repressed and persecuted in the name of your god.
Kent L T wrote:
There are a lot of loving and caring people in churchs
Yes I'm sure that is true. There are a lot of loving and caring people outside churches also. The only difference between them is the ones inside the churches have been conned into believing that their natural inherent goodness does not belong to them, and that they need to rent it from a priest.
We can't speak for all churches. Some churches do their best. Some do not. All churches are funded by the free will offerings of time and services and financial donations, in worship to God, out of the joy of their hearts.
That said, some churches like Rick Warren's Saddleback Community Church in CA do have gay outreach ministries, to assist those wanting to change their mind about their lifestyle of choice. The church is leading the way in AIDS efforts in Africa as well. PBS did a special on them. Check it out.
Homosexuality and abortion (murdering under-developed human life) is immoral and wrong according to the bible. Biblical churches do not condone the activities. A biblical church would supprt a soon to be mother in crisis though. Many ministries do. There are many denominations and para-church organizations with large scale safe homes for battered, sexually abused and pregnant moms, singles, teens, etc. The SBC has a large operation like this.
It sounds like you are an unbeliever in God. God is not about religion. He is not what you see on the TV. That is a bastardized commercial version to make people rich. If you were to read Gods words to us in the bible, then you would see that the creator just wants us to love him and love the others around us.
You make some generalizations that are not true for all. Yes, there are some people outside of a church doing "good" things. God can use anyone (and does) to accomplish his will. But, those good works don't outway the shortcomings in life.
"God love the world, and gave his only son, that whosoever believes in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No man comes to God but by me."
"By grace you are saved (reserved from the wrath of God) by faith in Christ. It is not by works, because some men would boast. All of your works are as filthy rags."
SwitchbladeSound Recording Org Pro Audio Group
Joined: Jun 27, 2007
Posts: 28
Location: Tempe, AZ
It is. But when we are talking about church audio, and someone asks a question about churches, I am not going to discourage it. Free speech here. Use it while you can. The Fairness Act is coming back in vogue.
IIRs Recording Org Pro Audio Group
Joined: Oct 10, 2005
Posts: 450
Location: Sheffield, UK
We can't speak for all churches. Some churches do their best. Some do not.
I can speak for all churches: they are institutions founded on lies, which exist solely to provide an easy and comfortable living for the priest / parasite class.
sheet wrote:
That said, some churches like Rick Warren's Saddleback Community Church in CA do have gay outreach ministries, to assist those wanting to change their mind about their lifestyle of choice.
"assist those wanting to change their mind about their lifestyle of choice." ???
I think you meant to say: "convince these poor misguided people that their loving relationship / unfulfilled sexual urges are evil and will result in their eternal damnation."
I consider this a form of torture. Gay people have no more choice about their orientation than you have about your skin colour. You might as well try to "help" black people by scrubbing their skin with wire wool in an attempt to make it whiter.
British Medical Journal wrote:
Abstract:
Objectives To investigate the circumstances since the 1950s in which people who were attracted to members of the same sex received treatments to change their sexual orientation, the referral pathway and the process of therapy, and its aftermath.
Design A nationwide study based on qualitative interviews.
Participants 29 people who had received treatments to change their sexual orientation in the United Kingdom and two relatives of former patients.
Results Most participants had been distressed by their attraction to their own sex and people in whom they confided thought they needed treatment. Although some participants chose to undergo treatments instead of imprisonment or were encouraged through some form of medical coercion, most were responding to complex personal and social pressures that discouraged any expression of their sexuality. While many participants found happiness in same sex relationships after their treatment, most were left feeling emotionally distressed to some degree.
Conclusion The definition of same sex attraction as an illness and the development of treatments to eradicate such attraction have had a negative long term impact on individuals.
The church is leading the way in AIDS efforts in Africa as well.
Leading the way in dangerous misinformation: according to the Catholic Church condoms help to spread HIV. Preaching this to AIDS-ridden Africans is tantamount to mass murder.
sheet wrote:
Homosexuality and abortion (murdering under-developed human life) is immoral and wrong according to the bible.
I do not accept the bible as a source of morality. (after reading chapters such as Ezekiel 23 how can you? Do you honestly believe it is acceptable to murder a woman and all of her sons and daughters becuase she is a prostitute?)
sheet wrote:
It sounds like you are an unbeliever in God.
No shit sherlock. The concept of god is an insult to my intelligence.
sheet wrote:
God is not about religion. He is not what you see on the TV. That is a bastardized commercial version to make people rich.
There is NO difference. You pass the collection plate around at your church, right? You pay your priest / pastor / whatever a good salary, right? Rather higher than the national average I would hazard a guess..? You are all equally dishonest and corrupt. (or self-decieving... but the outcome is still the same even then.)
sheet wrote:
If you were to read Gods words to us in the bible, then you would see that the creator just wants us to love him and love the others around us.
I refer you back to Ezekiel chapter 23: I see no evidence of love, just barbaric and bloodthirsty murder, along with despicable double standards (what was god's punishment for all the men that "defiled her with their prostitution"? Nothing at all? )
It is high time you were educated better: morality does not stem from any religion, it is a contsantly growing and evolving thing that is shaped by our culture.
Do you honestly think that before Moses carried the stone tablets down the mountainside, all the jews belived it was ok to murder each other? Of course not; those 10 commandments were carefully chosen to fit with the mores that the people already held. Otherwise they would not have accepted it as the "word of god".
The problem is, once they have been usurped by a religion and declared "divine", moral codes ossify and struggle to evolve any further. After all, the word of god must be true eternally, right?
So we end up with a conflict: society's morailty changes (eg: we now accept that women are equal to men, and that it is not acceptable to murder them and their whole families for being sexually actuive.) but the word of god does not.
Religious people then have a choice: either they stubbornly cling to their out-dated mores and struggle to keep their society a generation or two behind the times, or they admit they were wrong and gradually moderate their views to avoid offending the innate morailty of their congregation.
Examples: the catholic church struggling to come to terms with the fact that it is no longer acceptable for "celibate" preists to bugger choirboys. Or the anglican church trying to avoid schism over the subject of homosexuality... note the way this debate is split by the way: african countries that still persecute gays mercilessly vrs western countries where homosexuality is legal and there are laws forbidding discrimination on the basis of sexual preference. In other words, the debate is not religious at all, it is simply a clash of cultures with moral codes that are at differing stages of development.
Religion therefore acts as a brake on morality, not as its source.
Consider the following two motivations for an act of altruism:
1. I do this because I wish to go to heaven.
2. I do this because I feel compassion for the suffering of a fellow human being.
Reason number 1 is used by suicide bombers. Can you imagine any plausible situation in which reason number 2 could be so abused?
sheet Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2003
Posts: 886
Location: Kansas City, KS
Forget catholiscism. That is not Christianity. That is not completely biblical. The Catholic church has done many things wrong in it's past, which I agree with you are crappy.
If you buy one Shure SM58, and it is bad out of the box...no, it explodes while pulling it out of the box, would you assume that ALL microphones are bad? Surely not. How many times have you found a hair in your food, or received poor service at a restaurant? Did you condenm and judge all restaurants, assuming that they ALL do that? Surely not.
You need to stop looking at men. Men fail. We are all sinful by our own choice. Our standard for church is biblical. It is nothing more than believers in Christ getting together to help one another and worship God. When not together they are to be the hands and feet of Christ, doing what he would do. If some organization sucks at it where you are (and churches ARE considered pretty much dead where you are) then don't assume that the lifeless un-Christian activity is universal, because it is not.
Homosexuality is a choice. How do you as a non-beleiving atheist prove that it isn't? If evolution is true and we have no intelligent designer, and homosexuality is natural, then how did to same sex cells procreate? They didn't. It's impossible.
Studies by several US organizations show that almost 90% of these homosexuals have been abused, had some trauma that has caused them to engage in it, or were TAUGHT it at a young age. It is not natural. I can send you some resources by non-religous study groups if you like. When God created man, he made a mate. It was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. You can't hold a recording console together with all screws. There must be some nuts and lock washers, or atleast a whole for a self tapping sheet metal screw to go into.
You can't base your beliefs on science. Science is man's best guess at what is going on. Science changes. Health care changes. What is a "fact" today will change tomorrow when someone else guesses with better tools and a fresh point of view.
multoc Recording Org Pro Audio Group
Joined: Apr 09, 2005
Posts: 408
Location: Tecumseh, MI
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