VHS Conversion

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:57 am

Hi, y'all! I have a ton of VHS tapes at my parents house and I've been thinking about converting some of them (old family videos and movies) to digital video to either play on a iPod or maybe even burn to DVD. I've never done ANYTHING with video and was wondering if someone could shed some light on the subject. I decided to see about pursuing this because I've got all the processing power and hard disk space and what not that I should need from my involvement with audio recording and I think I can do this without buying much of anything as far as software/equipment goes.

I've got:
20" 2.0 GHz Intel-iMac running Mac OS X 10.4.10 and iLife '06
2GB of RAM
320GB~ of free hard disk space out of 400GB on 2 seperate drives.

If it matters (also a):
Presonus Firepod w/ M-Audio BX5a monitors

I know I'll definately need a decent VCR (any suggestions?) and some sort of interface (again, any suggestions?) Also, please keep in mind I'm on budget, so if there are any cheap short cuts you know of, feel free to share Wink

Thanks In advance.

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:54 am

I recently got into this for the same reason as you.
All but 1 of my VCR's have died, and before this last one goes, I thought I should transfer all my tapes to DVD.
This is not as easy a task as one would hope.
Here's what I've learned.
- If you don't want to edit the videos. In other words, just record them to DVD. You can buy a VHS to DVD recorder. Everything is all in one box, just hit record and it does it's thing.
BUT- you will not be able to edit the end product (at least not with the best quality. Why you ask? because DVD is a compressed format. It's a very good compression, but it's compression none the less.

- If you want to edit the video on the computer and then burn the result to a DVD, you need a converter to go from your VCR to your editing program. The most economical are from Canopus. Research their ADVC line. They have several options depending on what you need.
Here's the kicker. If you think audio takes a lot of HD space, wait until you work with video. It turns out that the raw video that you import will take up about 15 GIGS per hour of video. So to put 2hrs of video on a DVD you will need 30 gigs of space for the raw video, 4 gigs for the compressed DVD finished product, and some extra room for editing and special fx etc. So figure about 40 gigs total for 1 DVD.
I had about 30 hours of VHS tapes to transfer. What a mission.
Oh- here's the other thing. When your editing program converts that 30 gigs down to 4gigs, it's going to take a long while. (like all night) Several hours on my G5.
Hope this helps.

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:18 am

Canopus ADVC 110, about $250, will work nicely as your video interface. I have the ADVC100 and it's worked flawlessly for over five years.

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:47 pm

Depending on the quality of your videotapes, just having an analog to digital video converter may not be adequate. You may want to look into an inexpensive "copy box" that rebuilds/restores the vertical sync. An industrial quality VHS machine like Panasonic AG 1970 and later siblings feature a rudimentary TBC, or Time Base Corrector, which really straightens out the picture because the gyrations within the tape path causes video instability. Inexpensive digital video switchers such as the Videonics MX1 and the Edirol's & Panasonic units feature a Frame Store Synchronizer which can also correct for unstable video. Many of these analog to digital video converters don't like unstable vertical sync. You will get video dropouts and frozen pictures which ain't good viewing. The above mentioned correctors prevent that from happening. So you have at least 4 choices to obtain stable video.

I edit plenty of 2 to 5 simultaneous running camcorder musical events that are all-day festivals! You are talking about 32 to 40 hours of digitizing before you can even begin the week long, or more, Editing event!

I think I should start a musical group and call us "RemyRAD & The Terabytes"??

I don't need no stinkin' Time Code
Ms. Remy Ann David

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:53 am

Thanks for all the replys, guys. So, Remy, you are suggesting getting a VHS machine with TBC (like the Panasonic AG1970) and then using the RCA or S-Video outs on the VHS machine into a converter (like the Canopus ADVC 110)? I do understand, that this will be a timely process and would like to do this right the first time and not half-ass it. These videos are from the 80's and early 90's, so it sounds like a machine with TBC would certainly be beneficial. It's not that the tapes are trashed, but they ARE old. Anyway, thanks again. Oh, and Remy. I 'googled' the Panasonic AG1970 and they seem to be selling on eBay in the $50-$150 range, does that seem like a fair price to pay for a decent used one? or is it going to be junk at that price?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:48 am

Lots of great advice here, as usual! I'd just add my .02 worth for advice on long term storage, conversion, etc.

You can also transfer your VHS material to DV tapes for intermediate storage. Borrow or rent or go to Ebay for a decent DV camera or DV Deck with analog line inputs. Some even have S-VHS capability as well. (Doesn't have to be 3-chip pro quality - you're not using the imaging portion if it's a camera device, but it DOES have to have line inputs, and Firewire output.)

This is an attractive alternative to the canopus capture card (which I too used to have; but is really really old school these days, unless you're looking to do MPEG conversion on the fly, capture cards are almost a thing of the past; most computers nowadays will let you simply get in and out via a firewire port and DV device).

BTW; I looked at the Canopus card/box online. Not sure what it actually outputs...does it do standard AVI, or just MPEG? (MPEGs as you know, are already compressed and therefor compromised - same as consumer DVD, and that's not good if your'e going to do any further copies or editing.)

I've found the DV tape approach is good for several reasons. Although it's more time consumiung and tedious, you have one more backup in place for the old VHS stuff (not to mention smaller footprint...the size of a VHS tape is roughly equiv to six DV tapes, esp when it comes to storage.) You can then do your DV transfers into the computer at your leisure, one or two tapes at a time, edit and burn to DVD (along with a spare/backup DV tape) and bypass the whole MPEG conversion issue. It's not a stand-alone video processor like Remy recommends, but there are some things going on in terms of image stabilization, better sync input, etc., and all of that is a non-issue on the output side with the digital video interface.

The beauty in all of this is that you'll be ready for what's around the corner: HD DVDs and Blu Ray. It's not that you'll see much better quality on those formats, but by the time THAT format is in the consumers' hands, you wont have to worry about the compression/lossy MPEG4 format that current DVDs are using.

And last but not least; the prices of HDs are falling through the floor. You can get some seriously big HDs these days for a fraction of what they used to cost. $100 for 250 gig EIDE drives is about norm, and the 350 and 700 gigs (SATA, too) are just getting crazy/silly cheap.

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:42 am

Canopus stand alone boxes output AVI over firewire.

We have two of the 300 series.

We use to have one 100 and one 110.

The differences between the 100 series and the 300 series make me wonder what the top of the line Canopus converters look like. The 100 and the 110 are very good but the 300 is spectacular.

We do a lot of video restoration. We use the Canopus boxes to do the conversion between analog and digital. We also use them to view video on a standard video monitor and waveform scope. Our main editing program is VEGAS 7.0 and it allows us to use the Canopus for this purpose over the firewire connection.

Best of luck on your quest!

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:20 pm

That price for an AG 1970 is quite a good price. With a machine of that age, you're liable to find that certain transport parts and pieces, rotating head scanner, etc., may need some service and/or replacement? But then again, maybe not? The fact that it will output stable vertical sync, is worth the price of admission.

Joe and Thomas both also make very valid suggestions. But I think transferring VHS tapes to DV tapes is fine for programs one hour in length or shorter. If you're talking about full-length feature films, long winded concerts and such, you won't be able to fit it on a single DV tape. You absolutely don't want to use the slower LP speed that yields 1 1/2 hours on the tape because if you don't playback on the same machine, it will not track properly. In that respect, it was a bad move on the Japanese to offer that since they even tell you that it is highly prone to drop out since they are packing more data onto the tape, then it can really accommodate. The broadcast machines take a much larger cassette form factor which can run for upwards of 3 hours, continuously at full SP speed quality. Not possible with a consumer Mini DV device. I actually purchased a few years ago, one of those open box, on display camcorders at Best Buy, or $325. It has the ability to use the RCA connectors as either inputs or outputs (depending on whether you are recording or playing back from the camera or using it as a line input device). So that camcorder also functions as a video analog-to-digital and Digital to analog converter. I also have a Dazzle Hollywood Bridge, which is similar to those other converter devices such as the Conopus. It functions as a standalone converter for transferring directly between machines and/or a computer interface. It's all done in uncompressed ".AVI" format. I don't necessarily recommend those direct to MPEG hardware coder devices. That Bitstream is a constant bit rate. The variable bit rate that is accomplished through the software compression in the computer is a better route, even though it takes longer since it's not a real-time process. Uncompressed DV standard is really a misnomer. It actually is compressed but at a much lower ratio of 5: 1 as opposed to the much higher 10 to 20: 1 "lossy" MPEG 2 compression is. If you have at least a 3GHz Pentium 4 hyper threaded machine, your render time will almost be a real-time process in that, the rendering time will be much longer than the actual viewing time is. For authoring up DVDs, I really like using the Sony DVD architect. I've been using it since they introduced version 1 and we now have version 4 which I'm currently using but I still use version 1 frequently since I've used that one for so long and I'm more used to it even know is not as capable as version 4. I'm not doing anything of the nature that version 4 is actually capable of.

I'll be on later tonight to check back in.
Ms. Remy Ann David

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:52 pm

We have a lot of "antique" format video recorders everything from BETA to U-MATIC. They are all in very good condition. They need periodic servicing and they need parts which are sometimes hard to get.

I have seen a couple of high end VHS decks recently up for sale at various flea markets and ham fests. They look like they were used in broadcast or AV applications and "looked" like they were in fantastic shape. They normally don't want too much for them and I have seen some "broadcast quality" VHS machines for under $200. The biggest problem would be to find out IF they are in good playable shape.

A lot of the old timers that use to fix VCRs have either retired or have quite doing repairs due to the scarcity of parts so when you find someone who knows what they are doing and has access to parts make sure you treat them well.

I have a friend that has a Mac and a copy of Final Cut Pro and he does things for hire for people who are looking to get their material transfered and from what I have seen it all looks good AFTER he processes it. He charges by the hour or minute and does good work. They maybe similar people around your area.

Best of luck on your Quest!

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:43 pm

Thank you all again! Remy's solution seems to be the best (based on my budget). So my question to her is, I found that Dazzle Hollywood Bridge on eBay for $75. Pending I win these bids at these prices and they both are in good working condition, I could get that Dazzle converter for roughly $75 and that Panasonic AG1970 for about $100 equalling $200 (w/ shipping) to do this RIGHT. Does this setup sound like it will work well for what I want to do? Also, will I have any issues importing movies? I want to put my G.I. Joe movies from when I was a kid on DVD. Very Happy

Also, will iMovie and/or iDVD work for basic editing and conversion? Anyway, thanks for all your help this far.

-Patrick

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:41 pm

Dazzle or Canopus either one will work, the best they will do is 5to1 DV 4:1:1 compression in hardware.

Digitize directly in iMovie, and leave it in the native codec. Edit down, then use iDVD to author your edited piece.

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:24 pm

I want to follow JoeH's advice, transfer my VHS material to DV tapes, for starters.

I already have a Canon MiniDV camcorder. All I need is a new VCR.

In fact, the VCR doesn't need to have a tuner or recording capability. Is there a company that manufactures compact VHS tape players that fit on a desktop, for the typical price of a new VCR these days?

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:54 pm

I did some searching. I guess my best bet is a product like the Panasonic PV V4525S, unless someone has other suggestions.

Perhaps it is impossible to get a very compact VHS tape player for a consumer price?

I can't find the specifications or manual for the Panasonic PV V4525S, however.

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:52 am

There are still plenty of set top VHS & DVD players out there on the market. Best Buy and Circuit City still stock them. The idea is to let folks have access to their old (legacy) tapes and stuff, while having the convenience of a DVD Player too. Some record on VHS only, while some do both.

The prices are getting cheaper all the time, so you may want to check out one of those as well. I'd be surrpised if they're more than $100.

For what you want the VHS deck to do, it'd be worth your cash, and less expensive than paying a service. Once you're done, you still have a VHS player and the transfer are digital.

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:19 pm

Antiques you say. I was at a Foley stage in Burbank about a month ago. They were showing how they did the sounds for "Men in Trees" and they were locking up to....um...(cough)...
3/4 in!

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