I want to design a new plugin called EXPERIENCE

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:15 pm

It is strange that kids who know full well that it will take them a month to get through Halo 3 think that they will learn a DAW in a weekend.

Anyway, I think that you are missing one of the valid motivations for know-nothing DIY recording. There are so few venues now for performing that recording is a much easier and more available way of developing material than it was in the past. As you point out, a lot of bands have a hard time getting a dozen hours of live play per month. They simply don't have anything ready for a pro studio. Someone who has been playing live every night for years knows what works and can walk into a studio and lay it down in a short time. A band that never gets out of the basement might be better off messing around with recorded tracks and handing them to their friends or putting them on myspace for reactions.

The days of the Beatles playing live for 50 hours a week for 2 years in Hamburg and then spending 12 hours to record a "live in the studio" album consisting of the best 10 of the 300 songs they knew are long gone.

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:53 pm

very nice idea, if you need some good software testers let me know, lol

Moderator Joined: Sep 12, 2002 Posts: 1884 Location: NYC

Thomas, I do know a lot of midwest bands. A good 35% of the work I do comes from the midwest. Heck, I had 3 projects this month from Idaho. It's not really known for their music scene. NYC is no different from Ohio. The only difference is most of bands here can't afford a car much less parking.

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:48 am

BobRogers wrote:

The days of the Beatles playing live for 50 hours a week for 2 years in Hamburg and then spending 12 hours to record a "live in the studio" album consisting of the best 10 of the 300 songs they knew are long gone.

How true, How true... The Beatles paid their dues and really got great in Hamburg. Thats why they captured the spirits on those recordings. When I hear those tracks my mind is like a child again, every time. Hard to believe John Lennon had a nasty cold on the vox on twist n shout. He had only one take to get it right. Thats flipping crazy huh? Furthermore, all the sound engineers looked more like scientists in todays world. The amount of artistry is the most valuable plugin. Just think w/ out that plugin we would'nt need plugins....

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:52 am

There are so many ways to look at this, and so many lessons to be learned here....

Tom, I feel your pain, and nothing aggravates me more than seeing untrained people doing things they have no business doing. Unfortunately, with today's proliferation of faster, quicker, cheaper, "easier" to use gadgets, we see it in every walk of life. It is happening in every business, though, and so the bar gets raised - or moved or simply rendered useless - and the affected industries have to adapt.

Sometimes they die before they adapt, or the industries (audio and desktop publishing come to mind) change so radically over a few years they're almost unrecognizable when the spinning, errr...."adaptation".... finally stops.

The availability of cheap/affordable gear has had both good and bad effects on the world of recording: Yes, many more folks can rehearse in their bedrooms, jam in virtual bands, and some - a few small number - can break out and do something productive with it all. I see this is a good thing at its core; it keeps a lot of otherwise dangerous people out of trouble in their "Formative" years. Twisted Evil

In some cases, it gets the smarter ones ready for the big time.

On the other hand, it gets mucked up when some of this stuff gets passed off as 'polished' or professional or "Mastered" material. We all know what a joke that is. It's as unrealistic as all those impossible movie endings where the one-in-a-zillion talentless (but lots of heart!) guy/gal wins the world series, gets the girl/guy, hits the bullseye, wins the lottery, etc. etc. In reality, most are just over-confident schlubs who don't know mastering from their left foot. Unfortunately, in today's world, far too many of these so called "Mastered" CDs make it out the door and into our ears. It's not pretty. ( I always say: "Just because you can, doesn't always mean you SHOULD." )

I'll bet though, if you could find a way to run the true numbers, the number of real "Mastering" projects is about the same as it's ever been. There are just too many "Wanna-bee's" out there taking up the low end of the range of available mastering gigs. Think about life in the 60's, 70's or even 80's. There was no internet, no Amazon.com, no ebay, and Sam Ash was mostly still a big store in NYC that was more legend than sales muscle. Everyone else went to their local mom and pop store, and recording gear (what you could find at LRE or Radio Shack) was for nerds and geeks in training. We've got more of EVERYTHING now, and it only stands to reason that people are going to be suckered into the lure of "DIY."

Perhaps you don't want these clients anyway; no matter how tempting it might seem to try to grab these folks as clients, I'm guessing these fools wouldn't know enough to spend REAL money on one of us, anyway.

Two recent mastering stories here come to mind:

1. A classical client that I've been playing "phone tag" with over the last couple of years FINALLY brought in a project to me to be "Mastered." It was nicely performed, and very well recorded. BUT, there were problems, and thankfully, she knew enough to call in a pro when it was obvious.

We had the multitrack premixed stereo "Stems" to work with, and found several "Left & Right" Pannings were wrong, there was HVAC noise in several quiet movements, and she needed some DSP things done that her friend's starter-set of software didn't have (or he didn't know how to use). I really enjoyed this TRUE "Mastering" session; I fixed her panning issues, I speed (not pitch)-corrected a slow passage for her, I resequenced the tracks in a different order, I removed the HVAC noises, and I showed her the difference between low "Room ambience" between movements and "Digital Black/Absolute Zero" between works. She was thrilled; couldn't wait to pay me for the final master (with full TOC printout for the replicator), and wants to get back in to work on another project ASAP.

This was all due to my years of experience & better monitors, if nothing else.

2. As I mentioned in another post here, I'm currently working on a compilation of other folks' tracks for a Promotional CD for a festival, and the sound of the "Mastered" material I've been given ranges from very good to simply awful. (Tom, you'd laugh, cry and probably scream at some of this stuff....) Hearing dozens of tracks done in so many different environments, either by the artists themselves or professional mastering engineers, it's amazing how many ways people can screw even the simplest things up.

I'm betting the #1 cause of so many problems is bad monitoring, (and #2 is lack of experience) but they're not listening to ME for advice, most are happily oblivious to the problem, which I THINK is the core of that Tom and I and many others are annoyed about.

I don't think this is ever going to go away, it's just going to raise the bar yet again, and we as recording & mastering engineers have to always be looking for better and more informed customers, and count on their ability to know (and hear) the difference between McDonald's and Ruth's Chris's.

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:36 am

Some time ago I caught up with a fella who was a friend of a friend. I offered them to come check out my place and see if they'd like to record. In reply I got a smug "Why would I pay you to do it when I can do it myself?"

Touche.

Not wanting to step on any toes, I said (with a hint of sarcasm) "You're absolutely right".

I've heard their recordings. They weren't terrible, but I knew I would be able to get them a much better end product.

I guess my point is that there are too many people out there with money to blow that DO take money away from people. I have nothing against people wanting to explore and try things on their own. But, I've found that this person was just like many others that feel they can do everything on their own.

Perhaps I just don't understand ...

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:48 am

Joe H

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I use to think that quality would win out over price but in the WALMART world we are all living in at present it seems that the average person is not looking for quality they are looking for quantity and/or price.

What really upsets me is the average person calling me up with one of the following scenarios.

1. "I have a CD release party next week. I have to get my stuff mastered and to the replicator. I have $200.00 left to do the mastering and their are 14 songs. Can you do this and I need it done today."

2. "I took my stuff to be mastered and it really sounds like S**T after the 'mastering engineer' got finished with it. Can you take what he has done and make it sound good? Oh and I need this done ASAP and I don't have any money left.

3. I would like to get my stuff mastered and I understand from a lot of my friends that you are the best in the business in Northern Ohio. How much to do charge (insert me saying what our current rates are) Oh darn I can't afford that how about $15.00 per hour or $10.00 per song?"

4. "I want to talk to you about mastering. I am trying to do the mastering on my album myself but don't seem to be able to get the sound I was looking for and wonder if you could tell me how to do it."

I rarely if ever get this one any more.

"I have a project that needs mastering. I would like to know what your current rates are and what your time table is for getting this done. I have 14 songs and each one is about 3 minutes in length. I know you can't give me an estimate of how long it will take until I get you the songs so I will send them over to you to listen to. I have not scheduled my CD release party since I want to make sure I have the CDs in my possession before I do so. Let me know what the total cost will be and when you can do it. Thanks!"

We have tried to meet peoples concerns about the "high cost of mastering" by offering indie rates and I still get people asking if we can "give them a break"

We are very efficient and most mastering done at our current rates comes in at under $400.00 but to some people this is like buying an expensive sports car when all they really want is their stuff "mastered"

The guy down the street (actually in Cleveland) who also does mastering is running into the same problems I am.

The studios that offer mastering are giving it away to keep their clients in their studio so they can make more money. I have heard rates from ZERO to $100 for the mastering. They are using their Mackie 824s in the same bad sounding acoustics that they did the tracking and the mixing and there is no separate pair of ears to catch the mistakes that have been their since the beginning but are, by now, completely tuned out.

The people that offer mastering on the INTERNET or on Craig's list may be doing the best mastering in the world but for $20.00 per hour or $10 per song they can't possibly be doing this and have this be their only job. The economics of running a REAL business would not allow for this.

I have heard some self mastering and it is like self barbering the idea is there but the final product leaves much to the imagination of the person doing the mastering or the barbering.

I use to let this get me upset but then I do a band like the Dirty Rooks from Chicago and realize that there are real pros out their doing really good work and more than happy to pay for and receive top level mastering at a REASONABLE price and I feel all warm and comfy inside

Thanks again!

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:51 am

I think that there's still a need (as well as a market) for high-end, well done stuff, but the mid to lower-end market is all but consumed by the DIYer's, and I doubt it's going to change any time soon, if ever.

I CAN hear the difference (and I'm sure you can too) between a so-so recording, done with a nice $200 mic, a decent USB pre, and an OK talent with no producer or direction vs. the really good stuff. You know it the moment you hear it. I'm listening to this pile of material for the project I mentioned, and it's almost sad how GOOD the stuff could have been in the right hands (not even mine, just someone - ANYONE - that knows how to make it all shine.)

I hear it all the time; my wife's best friend's husband is a piano-rocker wanna be, and his friend is a guitarist/singer wanna-be, and they've brought two CDs to me to listen to that are just AWFUL in every sense of the word. Big deal; they bought a MAC with ProTools and some mics, and think they're stars. They spend some $$ on a CD duper at Best Buy or Guitar Center, and off they go, selling lousy looking and sounding copies to friends and other dupes who still think just because it's on a CD, it MUST be good. I don't know what to tell these guys; they stink before the microphone is even turned on, so why would I want their biz?

I think some of these DIY'ers are doing us all a favor, but maybe that's me. Like those who steal music & movies, they aren't serious enough about to pay for it anyway. So try to "let it go, Louie." Wink

The worthy ones will come around, when/if they're ready. The tricky part is letting them know you're out there.

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:55 am

Michael Fossenkemper wrote:

Thomas, I do know a lot of midwest bands. A good 35% of the work I do comes from the midwest. Heck, I had 3 projects this month from Idaho. It's not really known for their music scene. NYC is no different from Ohio. The only difference is most of bands here can't afford a car much less parking.

I think Idaho would be more in the Pacific North West than the Midwest but I get your point.

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:14 am

fourone3 wrote:

Some time ago I caught up with a fella who was a friend of a friend. I offered them to come check out my place and see if they'd like to record. In reply I got a smug "Why would I pay you to do it when I can do it myself?"

Touche.

Not wanting to step on any toes, I said (with a hint of sarcasm) "You're absolutely right".

I've heard their recordings. They weren't terrible, but I knew I would be able to get them a much better end product.

I guess my point is that there are too many people out there with money to blow that DO take money away from people. I have nothing against people wanting to explore and try things on their own. But, I've found that this person was just like many others that feel they can do everything on their own.

Perhaps I just don't understand ...

In this day of IPODs and MP3s and car stereos with smiley EQs I think people have somewhat lost their musical taste or their sense of value. Music has become the wallpaper of life. Something to fill in the voids or drown out the noise from the commute. I don't think most people could tell you what differentiates a good recording from a bad and depending on their age may not really care. The whole loudness race is getting to the point of ridiculousness and there are only so many audio rules you can break before what you have is pure noise and not music at all. We are darn sure close to that level now.

People have no sense of what they are producing and with the INTERNET they can post it in a millisecond for everyone else to see or hear. I had one mastering client recently say to me can't you make my stuff sound more like the MP3 I am use to listening to? They sing off key, they don't know how to tune their instruments or play them and besides the five chords they know can't play anything else. These same people decide to go out an purchase a recording system so they can do CDs and then they take this poorly recorded poorly played mess to a mastering engineer and tell him or her to "make it sound good" or they do the mastering themselves also with out a clue as to what they are doing.

I understand I just don't know what anyone can do about it.

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:26 am

Frustrating. Very frustrating.

So being a guy who hasn't been doing this as long as some of the guys and gals here, do you think it's a battle worth fighting, or is it truly inevitable that the quality of music will decline?

And if it does decline, why have all the nice gear? Who'll care about high sample rates, quality converters, clean mics and pres? Why not just record everything using a USB mic straight to MP3? I ain't fartin' on no snare drum.

What's the point of all the nice pro and pro/consumer gear if it's not being used properly?

-Intrigued and confused ...

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:29 am

I don't really have much to add in regards to mastering on this one as I've b*tched about this way too much as it is.

However, I have a funny/sad related story that happened just this week (Tuesday).

I got a call from what initially sounded like a young woman (my thoughts were 20-25 years of age) who was asking about laying down some country music. I was quite content to work with a young woman laying down country tracks, so I continued to chat and answer her questions.

It became apparent after about 2 to 3 minutes that this young woman was actually a young man whose voice had not yet dropped...

The project then began to change as it also now included a little bit of rap....now some gangsta rap...(Can you say A.D.D.?)

So then, he decided to hit me up with the "hard" questions...
Do you use "Newman" microphones (yup, Newman...)
Do you use ProTools and Waves?
What are your rates?

When I told him that my rates are $75 and hour if I come to them or $50 an hour if he comes to me, he nearly spit his chocolate milk out of his nose!

The previous studio he had just spoken with was charging $25 for a 4 hour block. Of course, he uses ProTools (M-Powered with his cheap-butt interface), Waves plugins (which, I'm assuming are cracked) and he doesn't have any "Newman" mics, but he does have a really nice CAD microphone and a couple Behringers and a handful of Shure PG57s.

Gee...I wonder why I shut my commercial studio down after having it open for only a year!

I'd consider re-opening, but the location/rent has to be the EXACT spot that I want (in the historic downtown strip with the happening live-music scene... Actually, I know the exact shop that I want and it could be VERY easily converted to a studio. A couple of hippies have opened a paraphanalia shop in there for the time being. They'll be gone in a year or so...)

By the way, I also understand it from the photography side of the house. My wife is a professional photographer and she deals with this crap just as I do. She went to a nice photo school, she has so many independent training courses it's not even funny and has been doing photography for money for nearly 12 years now yet she still has to explain why her rates (which are some of the most affordable in town for a full wedding service - $2800 which includes 8 hours, 2 photographers, 4 cameras, a fully filled leather or wood album and about 50 additional photos of various sizes.....Other photographers in this area charge between $5K and $15K and provide less for that money). She gets the third degree from people toting $300 digital cameras who don't know what medium format is either. Just like people who want "ProTools" and "Neumann (Newman)", people insist that she use a Nikon or Canon (she shoots on Minolta Maxxum 7D bodies for 35mm work).

I guess, what I mean to say is that we're not alone.

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:33 am

rockstardave wrote:

Thomas W. Bethel wrote:

JACKOFFALL

hahhahahahaha!!!!!

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:44 am

I wonder how much of this comes from the "digital" hype used for marketing just about anything these days. The assumption that all things digital are high quality sound/picture.

<Whoa, dewd - do your recordings in digital so they sound like CDs>

With total disregard to the rest of the equation, all that matters is that it's "digital". Confused

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:08 pm

Hear hear.

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