P.A. speaker set-up

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:40 am

Hello! I was wondering if I could get some advice on the best placement for P.A. speakers in a club that holds roughly 150 people. The 'stage' is set to the corner, facing the audience roughly at a 45 degree angle. I am using four berringer 300 watt P.A.'s driven by a phonic powerpod 1060. I actually have two of these, but for the size of the room I believed that would be over-kill. However, I did like the idea of stacking the speakers and driving just the low-end, (bass guitar and kick drum) thru the two low and the vocals/snare, what-not from the two on top. Should the speakers angle to the crowd in general, or would it be better to place them more straight forward facing. I find that good for the fact it hits most of the area, but I lose quality in mix.
Any idea's?

Thanks

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:56 pm

i'm a big fan of mono source single stack pa's... ya get better coverage in general and no-ones straining to hear the other side of the mix...

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:16 pm

Never do live stereo unless there is a reason.

No reason, keep it mono.

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:18 pm

Thanks for the response, all.. Here's another quick question. So I should go to 'bridge' on my amp? This kills the stereo effect and allows equal blend, yes?

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:29 pm

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Are they powered speakers?

Is it a powered board?

Give us your chain.....

mic - board - processors - amp - speakers.......

Break it down into a diagram so that way we can figure out how to hook them up and/or ask appropriate questions.

In other words more info. We're flying blind.....

Do you have EQ, compressors, reverb, delay, what's on the back of the speakers if they're powered? Do you mean bridge mono?

What model of everything are they so I can access the user guide online if there is one.

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:38 pm

Hey Bigdaddy. Nothing complicated about the set-up, mate. It is a Phonic PowerPod1060, *two of them, actually* and four berringer 300 watt speakers, plugged into the A/B jacks respective to the powerpod. For this type of venue, I am only running the bass mic'd from the bass amp to the powerhead, the kick drum and snare/high hat and the vocals. The vocals are set on pretty much mid's with mid effects on reverb. Understand that the problem we had the last time we played with this set-up was a lack of bass guitar and placing the speakers for optimum sound, but as I said in the first post, it is a strange set-up as the bar is much more long than equal. Hope that helps

Cheers

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:41 pm

"Bridging" the 2 channels on a power amp allows them to work as one big channel. It's usually done to generate maximum current o push power-hungry subwoofers. With your rig you do NOT want to do this!!! Here's why:
A power amp bridged (to mono, what else) and rated at an 8-ohm load like the Powerpod is should NEVER be operated at a load less than its' rating. A pair of 8 ohm speakers (like the Behr&^&**&rs) yields a 4-ohm load. This is equivalent to running the 2 bridged channels on the Powerpod at 2 ohms apiece. The amp will overheat and shut down. So, if you want to use your (4) 8-ohm speaker cabs with these (2) Powerpods, you really need to leave the amp sections alone and let them run at 8 (or 4) ohms, each. NOT any bit lower. When you add in the fact that when you pump low end material into a given speaker cabinet, that cab's rated impedance drops as the material approaches the cabinets' resonance point. A nominal 8-ohm rating can easily be more like 5-6 ohms when a heavy-hitting kick drum is pumped through it. That means your pair of cabs will be seen as if it's a 2.5 to 3 ohm load. Lotsa luck on your Powerpods driving THAT when they're bridged! Do you wanna cook some eggs?
And, FWIW, I frequently use a "single-point cluster" on jobs where the band is set up in the corner of the room. It tends to minimize sound reflections off of the walls in a room. In fact, this weekend I used that same approach in an outdoor courtyard for a jazz show to 500 people.
It kept the sound from bouncing off of the perimeter buildings, kept it "focused".
As far as aiming the cabs, ALWAYS try to aim the direct sound AWAY from the walls as much as possible. And, IMHO it's never "overkill" to add an extra amp! You might very well find that putting the kick and the bass through their own Powerpod (since you have it) and speakers will be cleaner than simply using the single Powerpod. Kind of like a "poor mans' biamp", if you will. And, while I realize that you're on a budget, try to ditch those speakers and get something that will move some air when you can. Speakers are the most important component in a sound system, and ALL of Be^*&^rs models are...well, llet's just say that they're not up to snuff. Good luck!

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:51 am

What he said is dead on.

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:53 am

Excellent advice! Thank ya.

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:00 am

What do you guys use for a splitter when doing this? I realize he probably doesn't need it, but I may need to use a couple of amps to run a single monitor mix through a half dozen speakers - hence multiple amps - across a wide stage. (Yes, not the ideal situation, but there are constraints.)

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:55 am

I would always use an EQ into a compressor then into the poweramp then into the speakers.

If I was using let's say both sides of the power amp to power 2 pairs of speakers off the same signal I would use a good quality Y jack. So you just need to use make a little splitter box out of swithcraft jacks and good quality cable inside.

Having the EQ and compressor lets me add gain to drive the extra power amps if I need it. I used the compressor to tighten up the sound a bit (which can actually add feedback) but mostly for limiting to protect the horns from spikes when there is any feedback. You know someone is going to point the mic at those monitors. So I used soft compression a bit at 3:1 and the limiter part if it has it, better one's do. Inexpensive DBX 166 worked fine. The vocalists liked the compressor because it fattened their sound to add to their fat egos.

My small system had an Ashley 15 band stereo EQ and DBX 166, one side for mains one for monitors. Simple and it worked fine. Mackie 1402???board, EV 12 higher end wedges and either Yorkville Elite 12's or the JBL 225???? lower end 15's powered by a Crown powerbase 3. That covered a nice sized room with clean power and plenty of monitor power. I could also add on a pair of Yorkville 18" subs with another P3 amp and Ashley Xover. I eventually went over to the 2400 crowns and a Crest. I also started using a Mackie top of the line power amp for the monitors. They said it was as good as the Crown 2400 and that was BS, but it had a smoother warmer sound, not as much raw power and did not feedback as easily as the crown so it was good for monitors. Same for the Crest which was old, it was really clean and warm and I like using them for the horns in the bigger 3 way system.

This was like 10 years ago so a lot of the equipment I forgot and some they don't make anymore or the model changed. But the basics of sound reinforcement will never until they develop new technologies, which are coming.

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:14 am

I use the 166 and Ashly EQ's, too. They sure beat the heck outta the Chinese stuff, eh? Nothing like decent headroom.
Like Bigdaddy said, you can use the multiple outs of an EQ (or comp) to drive multiple power amp channels from a single mix. Of course, that's providing that the processor has these in the first place. It's no problem to use the balanced and unbalanced outs simultaneously. If you don't have the luxury of multiple EQ's, etc., you may be able to get by IF the power amps have paralleled inputs (1/4" and/or XLR). You can then simply jump from 1 channel to the other with a short patch cord, and subsequently link another amp to the system in the same way. These days, it's harder and harder to find a power amp manufactured that has a pair of inputs paralleled on each channel. I was surprised to find that the Crowns a local church had didn't have an easy way to parallel the channels together. You would have to strip wires and use the euro-block strip to do it...ugh! Everyone finds ways to scrimp on features these days!
Then if you don't have these features on your amps or processors, the splitter method will do it.

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