What causes this echo?

Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:22 pm

Just to recap:

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trying to record my 4 piece band:
- a fast computer with Cubase/Audacity/Soundforge installed
- M-audio 2496 card
- Yamaha 8 channel powered mixer (that we use for a practice PA)
- Good quality mics for drums, vocals,
- one guitar plugs directly into the mixer, the other has a mic positioned about 7" in front of the Amp speaker.

So far I've tried recording the output from the mixer (rec out) directly into the stereo inputs on the 2496. The problem is we are playing through the mixer (main or monitor) and through the speakers; and also using microphones for vocals and 1 guitar. What happens is it seems to create a loop resulting in a slight echo - and we hear it through the speakers. I'm assuming its the mics picking up the speaker sound - but then I realized this doesn't happen we are not recording.. so I'm mystified.

Is it something to do with mains vs. monitors? It seems to be most prominent on the guitar that is being miced. hmm.. maybe because the guitar is a separate sound source being miced and projected out the PA then picked up by the mic creating a loop? My head is hurting now Rolling Eyes

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 12:39 am

Do you monitor the sound card (out) through the mixer when recording?

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 6:30 am

Not that I know of.. I have the line out from the computer going into the RecIn on the mixer, but I thought I'd disabled it. I'll double check.

Another option I just thought of; my son has a Digitech RP-250 guitar effects pedal that can plugin directly to the mixer (or via USB). That would eliminate a mic.. then the bass and 2 guitars would all be direct in.
Then the mics would only be on vocals and drums. I'm thinkin we could get a clean recording if we recorded live off the floor (guitars,bass & drums) on one track and then record the vocals on a seperate track.

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 3:36 pm

Rimshot wrote:

I have the line out from the computer going into the RecIn on the mixer, but I thought I'd disabled it. I'll double check.

Now you are confusing me. Smile

„Recording in“on the mixer? Confused

I think that is the problem. Connect only main out (or rec out) from the mixer into the card input for recording. Do not connect card out into the mixer when recording.

best regards

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 9:03 pm

You may be right!
It didn't occur to me before, but I was using the Rec In on the mixer to playback the recorded tracks thru the PA. I didn't think it would send a live signal back out at the same time I was recording. I'm pulling the plug!
I must have also had the software set to transmit & receive at the same time.. doh!

Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 12:47 am

I'm just curious, what is the model of Yamaha mixer?

Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 1:25 am

It's an old Yamaha EMX860ST 8 channel powered mixer.

Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 3:01 pm

Rimshot wrote:

I'm thinkin we could get a clean recording if we recorded live off the floor (guitars,bass & drums) on one track and then record the vocals on a seperate track.

I'm afraid that's not possible with this mixer. There is no way for separate recording and monitoring path at the same time. So .... recording all at once – less control, but more fun.

keep rockin'

Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 3:17 pm

I was thinking that we either;
- record the vocals after the fact; i.e., unplug them from the mixer while we lay down the bed track
- or pan the vocals hard right and everything else hard left. Then tweak and mix them afterwards in an audio editor.

Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 2:36 am

Rimshot wrote:

- or pan the vocals hard right and everything else hard left. Then tweak and mix them afterwards in an audio editor.

This will end as two mono tracks. Nothing much left for mixing. I doubt you will be happy with such narrow mono picture.

Rimshot wrote:

- record the vocals after the fact; i.e., unplug them from the mixer while we lay down the bed track

You still have the same problem mentioned above - monitoring the bed track without being re-recorded back during overdubbing the vocals.

You can try this:

1. Record one stereo track - „all at once“ – this will be the guide track for the drummer.
Burn it on the CD and play it to the drummer from the Discman or CD player directly, using the headphones.

2. Mic the drums, set the good balance and pan, and record it as stereo track into Cubase. Keep the PA master level low during recording (against the bleeding).

Now you have clean stereo recording of the drums.

3. Connect the output of the card into stereo channel on the mixer (for monitoring) and turn off the monitor pot on that channel.

4. Connect one guitar into the mono channel (actually, mic the amp, it's more organic).

5. Find a healthy recording level using monitor send pot on the guitar channel, and good monitoring balance between "guitar" and "card monitor" channels using level pots.

6. Record the guitar on separate mono channel in Cubase.

7. Repeat 4-6 for every instrument and vocal you need.

Happy mixing

Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 11:15 am

Hey Groff,

Thanks for the advice, it took me a while to figure it out Rolling Eyes

but it makes perfect sense. I don't know why, but it never occurred to me to use one of the channels for the card output (instead of the Rec In)!

Even better, I can use my good Yamaha RC drums at home and tweak the rythmn tracks there, then take them in and have the other guys lay down their tracks.

Cheers!

Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 12:38 am

Rimshot wrote:

but it never occurred to me to use one of the channels for the card output (instead of the Rec In)

Mismatched terminology.

There isn't „Recording in“ on the mixer.

The mixer has:

TAPE IN – accept tape/CD player (or the card output) and routes it directly to the mains.

RECORDING OUT – it sends (main) signal to recorder
Wink

Sorry

I forgot to mention the most important thing:

3.b - Connect the front (unpowered) monitor out into card input (AD stage)

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