Overhead Phase

Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:31 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by deanp920:
"The center of the string loop is where the snare impact point is located."

So, you pick an arbitrary length of string that is longer than the tee, and tie each end of the string to each end of the tee? Then the sting is pulled taught at its' centerpoint to form a triangle with the tee? Is that where the mic goes? I thought the mics went at each end of the tee?

Your confusion is the entire basis behind making a simple PVC jig. Once you see it work, it becomes obvious.

1) A mic is placed at either end of the tee.
2) The "leg" end of the jig is at the kick beater point.
3) The midpoint of the string is at the snare impact point.

You are dealing with two triangles: one formed entirely of PVC (tee ends + leg end). The second triangle points are the tee ends, and the string mid point.

The RecorderMan technique requires the pair of mics to be equidistant from the kick, and equidistant from the snare.

The jig approach allows an assistant to rapidly set up overheads, without tape measures or having to understand how it works. The kick and snare sit dead center in the tracks.

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:23 am

between recorderman's speaker/kick drum mic metal stand and the mic positioning "magic T" i see a whole line of drum recording products waiting to be released on an unsuspecting public.

greg

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:41 am

between recorderman's speaker/kick drum mic metal stand and the mic positioning "magic T" i see a whole line of drum recording products waiting to be released on an unsuspecting public.

greg

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:47 am

Sonixx,

I was talking about the gap that would be created by the G1's rim acting as a spacer between the two heads. If you flip the head over, there's no spacer anymore.

Which way do you have it?

Also, with nothing inside my kick, I get that "beachball" sound regardless of what I do to the head(s). Have you ever encountered this?

bgavin,

I understand your jig now...snare impact point = spot where drumstick hits the snare head. How long is the string on your particular setup?

I LOVE jigs!

Dean

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:06 am

String length = cut to taste.

A longer string puts the mics "higher" and more forward above the kick and cymbals, and farther from the snare.

I have not yet worked out a simple means of changing the string length. It has to be ultra simple, but effective.

The initial setting is determined by the recording engineer using trial and error methods to get his desired sound. The jig is sized accordingly, then the assistant can place it accurately every time with minimal fuss.

When I was an engineer at IBM, we were forced to suspend using the word "jig" because of imagined racial connotations.

Poppycock.

Very Happy

Every tool maker understands what a jig is, and this one is just a tool for mic placement.

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:33 am

Quote:

Originally posted by deanp920:
Sonixx,
I was talking about the gap that would be created by the G1's rim acting as a spacer between the two heads. If you flip the head over, there's no spacer anymore.

Which way do you have it?

Also, with nothing inside my kick, I get that "beachball" sound regardless of what I do to the head(s). Have you ever encountered this?

Hi deanp920,

The batter side of the G1 is taped to the kick head. The G1 rim is not touching the kick head.

How tight is your kick head? Attach the G1 to the Kick head, then tune your kick head. Mine is fairly loose, but no wrinkles.

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:36 pm

Sonixx,

My kick is tuned similarly, but I'm beginning to think that some of the pinging problem is the gloss laquer finish inside my kick(Taye Studio Maple 18X22).

A small wad of cloth inside the drum not even touching the heads gets rid of that beach ball sound.

Like you, I like my kit wide open, with no muffling.

Dean

Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 4:16 pm

I´ve learned a lot from this thread since I found it!!! Very Happy

Now I know how to place the OH right on the spot, taking care of distance between both. After trying this tecnique some questions came up to me: If I add snare & kick mics, where should I point both overheads??. Does the kick needs to be in the middle (talking about OH), what if I point them to the toms or floor tom??. Moving the phase switches and having no difference in the sound means no phase problems??.

Thanks
TS

Respected Past Moderator Joined: Mar 13, 2001 Posts: 1256

TamaSabian wrote:

If I add snare & kick mics, where should I point both overheads??. Does the kick needs to be in the middle (talking about OH), what if I point them to the toms or floor tom??. Moving the phase switches and having no difference in the sound means no phase problems??.

Thanks
TS

Pointing @ the toms can be very good. I do that many times. The goal of this particular technique is to equalize the thebalamce of the kick and snare between the channels (L&R) and to make the kick, snare toms greater in balance relative to the cymbals.

If you are flipping phase switches and it makes little or no difference, that means your neither completely in nor completely pout of phase. Not necessarily good. The better place to be in is when switching the phase (or polarity) buttons results in a thinner sound one way...that would be out of phase. Once you find that, flip the opposite way and you should have fuller, rounder, bigger, fatter (pick a nice analog adjective) drums.

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:18 pm

Quote:

The better place to be in is when switching the phase (or polarity) buttons results in a thinner sound one way...that would be out of phase. Once you find that, flip the opposite way and you should have fuller, rounder, bigger, fatter (pick a nice analog adjective) drums.

That´s exactly what was happening to me when I figure out this technique, but I thought that I was doing something wrong.
One more question: If I point the OH to the toms, I need to be sure that kick is in the center of both OH???.

Thanx again
TS

Respected Past Moderator Joined: Mar 13, 2001 Posts: 1256

[quote="TamaSabian"]

Quote:

One more question: If I point the OH to the toms, I need to be sure that kick is in the center of both OH???.

Thanx again
TS

That's a judgement call. I Like it in the center. But you amy roll out some lo end and the Kick mic itself will help solidify the center/bottom end. Make adjustments, leiten asn ask yourself if you are heraing everythung the way you want. If not...adjust. Don't get so far and think you're going to magically fix it in the mix. Make it happen now.

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 3:30 pm

So is it possible to point the two overheads at the toms (one at the rack tom and the right on the floor tom... basically pointing down?) and still get the snare and kick in the center of the stereo image?

I was able to try this technique really quickly the other day (got the two mics the same distance) but i didnt have time to finely adjust the two etc. I want the overheads to really pick up the toms besides just the cymbals and snare because i will close mik the snare and also the kick.

One of the problems i have is even when my preamp gain is all the way down on my overhead condensor mics it sometimes clips because of the snare (even when they arent really pointed at the snare)... should i just try to point more at the toms and maybe making the mics higher?

sonixxx:

thanks for those pics and files... what compression settings did you use for those overheads?

thanks

Respected Past Moderator Joined: Mar 13, 2001 Posts: 1256

wear headphones and listen to the two mics panned hard left and right with equal gain on each. As you position the mics pointing @ Rack & Floor respectively) have the drummer lightly tap snare and kick. You can then adjust my inches and fractions thereof until you achieve the desired balance.

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:19 pm

Thanks Recorderman I will try that.

i'm really excited about this new drum micing technique... so far (without even fine tuning much) its given me the best drum sounds ive ever had (before mostly doing spaced overheads...would never give me much balance).

Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:13 am

photoresistor wrote:

...sonixxx:

thanks for those pics and files... what compression settings did you use for those overheads?

thanks

hey photoresistor, the compression depends on the players style. when I track myself, I generally use a very low ratio 1.2 or less, slow attack and fast release and low threshold maybe around -30db. but for instance with my son, he plays the cymbals a lot harder, so I use an exciter to tame the cymbals (very fast attack and release) to bring up the drum hits (threshold balances Drum to Cymbal), followed with a general compression similar to above. I set the exciter to bring up the drums and get out of the way of the cymbals and the compressor is a leveler. each song usually requires a different approach.

two plugin compressors I use a lot are the PSP Vintage Warmer and Waves RCOMP. I usually only use the Vintage Warmer on the whole kit mix and on the Kick.

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