Overhead Phase

Respected Past Moderator Joined: Mar 13, 2001 Posts: 1256

Quote:

Originally posted by yelhahc:

Place them at the drummer's head level slightly behind him and a drum stick's length off each shoulder. The mics should be pointing forward. Experiment by angling the mics slightly down towards the kit and try a touch of compression.

Yes...alll these work great.
Also...jsut a pair of 57's are great for this.

Try this above tehcnique after finding a good spot in the room near a wall....have the drums FACE THE WALL....the right spot will give a cool reflection of the ki back at the mic's....have fun

Posted: Sat May 03, 2003 9:56 pm

here is how to deal with phase:
hit the mono button - if you don't hear anything
weird , then you are in phase. to be certain , move
some of the drum faders up and down while listening
in mono - if still no symptoms - forget it and get on with
the more important things like song arrangement ,
tempo and key.

Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 9:51 am

This thread is mint.

Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 9:57 am

wound up using 2 beta 57's overhead since my sm57's were in use. Great results. My drummer thought I was a dumbass as I set it up, but he loved the sound.

My only problem now is working on the kick. I think that I need to work on some eq and compression setting to get the sound I like.

Thanks RecorderMan!

Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 11:27 am

All of the suggestions I've seen here are good ones, however I wouldnt worry about mono compatability at this stage. You have the ability to adjust this during the mix process without a headache. I prefer to mic for the widest stereo image possible and pan in afterwards if required, or add mono fx to blend to center.
The main thing to keep in mind when miking drums is what will be mono. Usually just kik and snare. Phase issues are much more apparent with snare trax because of the frequency range. Always make sure the overheads are the same distance from the snare, kik if possible, but for the kik it is not as critical.

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2003 11:07 am

I know this is the thread-that-wouldn't-die, but it's so good. I am a recent initiate to the 'recorderman two stick shuffle' and now I'm a believer. like someone posted, this has done more to improve my drum sounds than any mic, mic pre, or piece of gear I own.

AND restored my faith in proper mic placement being central to a great recording.

:c:

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:33 pm

how the hell is this supposed to work? i was working on this technique tonight with my studio partner. we've got a very nice kit, good overheads (sm81)...but the math, or the setup just does not make sense...

we got the 'left' mic 36" directly above the snare facing straight down. then we measured the distance from the capsule to the beater pad (impact point) on the bass drum. i forget the number for that distance...it was 40 something inches....but if you try and triangulate the 'right' mic, it damn near ends up behind the drummer. it just doesn't make sense, or at least the math doesn't seem to work out. for the left mic, the distance between the capsule and the snare and the capsule and the beater pad are proportional. am i just thinking about this too much? it's like you can get one distance for the 'right' mic the same as one on the 'left', but not both unless you want to put the mic behind the drummer...

i was really looking forward to trying this and getting some nice results, but i'm rather deflated right now. Sad

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:52 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by RecorderMan:
7. Use amic cable. Measure the distance of the over the snare mic to the center of the kick drum. Check that the "right shoulder" mic is also the same distance.
8. Doulble check the snare distance again.

...

10. one last thing to check. with headphones on, both "OH" mics in your cue mix (only them) .fine tune the placement (i.e. adjust their orientation...usualliy just moving the shoulder one) untill the kick is in the center of your "image"

This is what i don't understand. how is it possible to have the snare/mic distance (hereafter called A1) and the kik/mic distance (B1) the same for both the left and right mics without putting the right mic in some really f'd up place, like behind the drummer? It seems like you can only get one of the distances of the over-the-shoulder mic the same as A1 or B1, but not both. the triangulation just doesn't seem right. and why does #10 say to go ahead and move the shoulder mic around? sorry if that sounds a bit snippy, but i'm a bit deflated i wasn't able to figure this out after hearing so many people say they achieved good results with it.

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:52 pm

S#@t, I was gonna try it this saturday in a session. I guess I'll stick to the good old XY. :s:

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:29 am

Recorderman,

If you have an Overhead mic directly above the snare drum, then pan it left, how is the snare going to be in the center of the mix? Truth is, it's not. However, the snare will be very present in the mix, and still probably sounds good (like you desribe). Based on the method that you describe, the snare will be in the middle and on the left side as well (if including a snare mic).

My biggest problem with your setup is that based on my gear, the overheads will clip like there aint no tomorrow. I already have enough problems with overheads clipping (I use a motu 896, with the input knob for the overheads turned almost all the way down). If I used the -10db pads that came with the Oktava MK-012s that I use, it would solve the problem, however when the pads are on, the overheads dont sound nearly as good (particularly the cymbals).

Any suggestions, or can you explain how its physically possible to put an overhead directly above the snare and be able to pan it hard left while still keeping the snare in the middle?

Stevo

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:54 am

nice to see you've joined steve....

it does sound really weird, but from what little i was able to do last night, the snare did sound balanced and the kick sounded a little off to the right. granted, i still don't completely understand how the math regarding the distances is possible, but hopefully someone can explain that.

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:31 am

Hey guys HAVE FAITH! This can be done it takes some experimentation to get this working with different kits, but I can state without hesitation that it kicks ass.

The first mic being about 33" directly above the snare pointing straight down. The second directly over my right shoulder when I play, slightly in front of me. This just requires awareness that it's there and not to strike it heh.

Here are some recent pics from my setup:

<img src="http://heinzmuzik.com/pics/dr01.jpg" alt=" - " />

<img src="http://heinzmuzik.com/pics/dr02.jpg" alt=" - " />

I have a 4.1 arrangement setup, just overheads (C42's), kick (421) and snare (57). Then there's a sub-kick mic for kick subharmonics.

Now here is a short clip (500k) of something I'm working on, recorded with the exact setup above. C42's are running through a DRS-2, and 421/57 through a TG2.

direct mp3 download (500k)

These are raw tracks no mixing other than levels. I've been working with this recorderman setup for overheads for a few months now and really like the way it sounds.

Cheers-

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:45 am

Heinz, what kind of hats are you using? I started playing live before I got hooked on the home recording stuff so I've been using "sound edge" style hats (paiste 2002 sound edge) and the Zyldjian equivalent. They're great for live because if you're not mic'd they cut through the wall of noise. However, for recording, I've found them to be way too hot. Any suggestions?

I've been following this thread because I want to try out RM's overhead method. Thanks for the pic, it's worth the proverbial thousand words. I'm using a matched pair of AKG 451c's for overheads. And, BTW, my kit is set up almost identically to yours especially with respect to the placement of the cymbals.

Also, any drummers out there .... do you switch between nylon and wood tips whenever you go from live to studio? I use nylon for live, I'm wondering if I should be using wood for recording

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:27 pm

thanks for the pictures heinz, those help a bit. when you place your second mic, do make sure its snare/kik distances are the exact same at the first mic distances? what distances do you get? when i was doing it, the only way to triangulate these properly was to put the mic almost behind the drummer, and that just doesn't make sense.
in your pictures, it looks like the second mic is straight back from the floor tom. ours was almost straight back from the kick...

oy. i'll work at it a little more today, and maybe take a few pictures of what's going on.

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:56 pm

Hi BDS I use 14" A Zildjian New Beats I bought back in like 1978. They aren't quite as cutting as some but mesh pretty well in a recording scenario. One thing is I have to adjust my playing style quite a bit when tracking, I pull back on the hats/cymbals and pump up on the drums. This is much different than my live technique which involves maximum pummeling of all objects in the perimeter.

I like nylon tips, but with most brands the tip goes shooting across the room into a nearby musician after a few cymbal hits. Promark Oak nylons seem the best to me. I use wooden tips when I've broken all my nylons.

Erik I just measured... both overhead mics are 32.5" from the snare impact center, and about 46-ish inches from the kick impact center.

Yes the 2nd mic stand is to my right behind the floor tom (and me), and the boom brings the mic right up next to my cheek and a bit in front of it. I could kiss it without much of a problem, but I digress. The mic is pointing directly at my snare which means it's pointing down and across the kit.

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