Overhead Phase

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2001 2:59 am

Hey recorderman... I'm not sure I'm following you exactly. From what I'm gathering its weird and out of whack, so I'm probably gathering wrong.

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2001 10:55 am

Hi RecorderMan,
I’ve been out of the loop for a while (mixing… ).
10x for clearing things up.
I’ll give it a try in the next coming project. My OH setup is getting lower and lower over the years…Peace,Zooot.

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2001 3:00 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by RecorderMan:
With due respect, while this may give you a lack of coloration (i.e. "in phase") between the overhead mics, it can/will be very arbitray and may/probably have no relationship to the other mics (i.e.,snare,kick,toms,etc).<hr></blockquote>
True, but then again you're never really going to get everything in phase with each other if you have overheads, snare, kick drum, and tom mics. But getting the overheads in phase is a good place to start and that technique seems like it would work extremely good.-tkr

Respected Past Moderator Joined: Mar 13, 2001 Posts: 1256

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by tubedude:
Hey recorderman... I'm not sure I'm following you exactly. From what I'm gathering its weird and out of whack, so I'm probably gathering wrong.<hr></blockquote>
1. sit on the drummer's throne/stool.
2.Hold both drum sticks end-to-end so that you have a measuring device ( aprox. 16"...give or take).
3. place the tip of one end of your new double- length-drums-stick-measuring-device in the center of the snare with the "drum sticks" held vertically.
4. The other end will now(depending on how tall you are) be a little above and in front of your forehead.
5. Place a mic here. I've been aiming it down at the snare as of late...
6. With the tip of the "drum sticks" still in the center of the snare, angle the "stick back and down, so that's it's to the right of your right shoulder ( about a 45 degreee angle)
7. Use amic cable. Measure the distance of the over the snare mic to the center of the kick drum. Check that the "right shoulder" mic is also the same distance.
8. Doulble check the snare distance again.9. As far as where to face them...experiment. I like the extra snare reinforcement, so as of late I've been facing them both at the snare. facing them at the rack and floor toms also produces good results.
10. one last thing to check. with headphones on, both "OH" mics in your cue mix (only them) .fine tune the placement (i.e. adjust their orientation...usualliy just moving the shoulder one) untill the kick is in the center of your "image"
11. When your done you'll notice that at first glance, this looks very weird and unsymmetrical. Yet it is very symmetrical in it's result. A. Rack toms are higher off the floor than floor toms, so this arrangement actually follows the contour of the toms as they really are. Standard OH micing doesn't take this into account, and as such are usually no more than "cymbal mics". Most of them time you see mixers pulling the OH's down to -10 or more in the mix because of the over abundance of cymbals and badly phased snare/kick/toms in the "OH's". I tend to focus my OH on being a cornerstone of my whole kit sound, and as such, and have spent great pains into making the snare/kick/tom elements speak as well as possible. I guess you could say I'm a "drum bigot". It's just that if you "ignore" the cymbals you actually are going to hear them anyway...like the hat, there just so damn loud. Now, I'm actually almost overstaing this point (almost to the point of being out of context) ,but I'm doing it, so as to explain my method.Hope this has been helpful

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2001 6:53 pm

I was just reading an interview with Jay Grayson (sp?) in sound on sound magazine.. His take on drum is is that all downward pointing mics are out of phase anyway because when a stick hits a skin it creates downward air compression which results in rarefraction on the mic side (ie out of phase with the normal diaphragm motion). So all mics in a kit besides the Kick and snare bottom would be out of phase acoustically in relation to the mic postitions...Nice big spanner there Wink

I'm all for minimal techniques so I'll be trying that out soon RMSean

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2001 11:53 pm

RecorderMan

I just wanted to thank you for posting this overhead configuration. Very, pleased with the results. Very balanced image with no real phase problems at all. Kick and snare are dead center. I modified the measurement length from 2 sticks to 21/2. 58" or so.
Used a pair of NTK's. Quite happy. Very Happy

Thanks againDan-O

Respected Past Moderator Joined: Mar 13, 2001 Posts: 1256

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Tekker:

True, but then again you're never really going to get everything in phase with each other if you have overheads, snare, kick drum, and tom mics. But getting the overheads in phase is a good place to start and that technique seems like it would work extremely good.-tkr<hr></blockquote>really give the technique that I have tried to described; then you'll stop worring about phase...and be diggin paht drum kits....

Respected Past Moderator Joined: Mar 13, 2001 Posts: 1256

Thanks Dan-O,that helps to make my day. I been doing this for a while...spending w-a-y too long assisting others...but have witnessed,catalogued and thereby distilled a rather cohesive if sometimes personal paradigm og this art.
I have also been reticent to post too much for all the flame wars that seem to start...my life is too short. But i am passionate about this stuff, and in all humbleness am truelly as fine a recorderman as anyone( a little self pat...not to offend)...anyway...for newbies: I would reccomend that you learn to really train your ears by:
1. aleays listen to the source, in the intended location(i.e. room) before you place mic.
2. move your head around spot too find good mic locations. Some times stand on a chair. The best spot in the room for an ambiaent mic might be above your head...or on the floor.
3. Use headphones...you can really hear what the mic is hearing ( it takes some practice as you're in the room also and the slight bleed of the enviorment affects what your truelly hearing).
4. I usually pan direct and ambient mics and L&R stereo mics; in my cans, hard left and right. When I have the image I desire it makes a nice ballanced left and right image...this means the phase is right.
 I don't do this as much myself anymore because my self-training has accumulated enough experiance to just throw 'em up in the right spot (..and eversince JJP gave me a story of his regarding Glynn Johns and himself...another time)
....keep recording real acoustic sounds

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2001 12:55 am

RecorderMan,
Do you use a hat mic with this setup?

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:24 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by RecorderMan:
really give the technique that I have tried to described; then you'll stop worring about phase...and be diggin paht drum kits....<hr></blockquote>I've used it on two different tracking sessions since you posted it. Works like a charm. I had to modify it slightly the other day though. I ended up angling both mics out about 30 degrees from the snare so I could get more hi-hat on the one mic. On the other side of the kit there was a "remix" cymbal that was like a 16" crash with tamborine style jangles on it and wasn't all that loud. We were tracking with all the amps in the room and it was getting lost.

Respected Past Moderator Joined: Mar 13, 2001 Posts: 1256

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Hack:
RecorderMan,
Do you use a hat mic with this setup?<hr></blockquote>Actually...I use tons of mics when I can. I like very 3D drums, so I use Top & bottom mics, multiple room and ambient mics, etc. But, I always commit at tracking and combine said mics so that I'll have: K,Snr,Hat,Toms,OH,stereo Room and Mono Room (whatever). I don't want to have to make those descisions again atn the mix and I want itn to sound great fast when I'm OD'in. I use multiple mics to gain any note I'm not already getting. I work backwards...get a great Room, then OH's then fit in the other pieces into this frame...works great. This OH technique also works stand alone ( as I've said...the OH are probably the two(or one) most important mics on the kit) Also the height obviously can be varied...I've just been diggin' recently the "cool" aspect of getting a good and fast OH sound using the drummers sticks...call me wierdP.S. Glad it's working out...any more questions?

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2001 12:00 am

ok, more questions...What is a good starting point for room mics? How far away, and how far apart? Large or small diaphram? And what about baffeling? I am thinking of using a room that is 100'W X 75'L X 20'H. I have heard that its good to surround the kit with soft things but what about the room mics? Should there be anything between the kit and the room mics?Should I put the kit in the middle of the room or on a wall? Riser or no riser?The questions never end.

Respected Past Moderator Joined: Mar 13, 2001 Posts: 1256

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Hack:
ok, more questions...What is a good starting point for room mics? How far away, and how far apart? Large or small diaphram? And what about baffeling? I am thinking of using a room that is 100'W X 75'L X 20'H. I have heard that its good to surround the kit with soft things but what about the room mics? Should there be anything between the kit and the room mics?Should I put the kit in the middle of the room or on a wall? Riser or no riser?The questions never end.<hr></blockquote>
All Good Question's....
Let's look at them, one by one.
1."Should I put the kit in the middle of the room or on a wall? "

Answer: First, what kind of Song and Band is it? Is it John Bonham or Ringo Starr we're after. If it's "Bonham", we want alot of room with more distant Mic's, if it's "Ringo" we want a drier more intimant sound.
Now that we know what sound were after, we need to find the right place in the room. That room you mentioned is on the big side, So take your snare and kick around the room untill you find a pleasing sounding location for them. You'll alos have to ballance that with the pur logistics os sightlines, etc, so that communication isn't a problem.
2 "Riser or no riser?"
I like riser's. Their purpose is to basically act as a resonator and reinforce the fundemental of the kick and toms. Use one ESPECIALLY if the floor is CEMENT.
Cement floor=Suckingall tone from drums.
3."What is a good starting point for room mics? How far away, and how far apart? Large or small diaphram? " Use your ears. Walk around the room while the drummer is bangin' away and find spots for room mic's. they can be large or small diaphram...depends on what you got. they can both work. The trick is to adjust accordingly to your needs. I do preffer large diaphrams myself though. You want to maximize the Drums and minimize the cymbals in your room sound. Find spots that give you a particularly focused aspect of the kick, or snare or toms,etc.
Baffle the kit, if, when listening to just the close mics (OH,K,Snr,toms,hat,ect), you hear too much room/slap/ambience,ect. If you don't...don't baffle.
[Also, another trick, for a big snare sound, baffle the kit on either side (your baffles need one "hard"side and one soft side) for this) of the kit; hard side of baffles facing out. place mics pointing at the hard side of the baffle. this makes a snare abient sound by minimizing the direct AND minimizing the pre-delay.]

more tips Sad

mix and match) Stick a kick ambient mic about 3' in front of the kick. This mic is actually a good mono ambient mic.
Need more low end on the Toms amd you've already top&bottom mic'd them? add two large diaphram mic's; one near the floor tom, the other on the hat side. Just a foot or so off the floor, 45 degree angle up, towards the kit, triangulated so that the kick and snare are as center as possible. Find the floor tom side first by finding the spot where it's note is tightest and most pronounced. Buss these two mic's into the room mic Busses. I will probably use a few room and ambient mic's, but, I'll make a stereo package of them; EQ'ing.compressing,ballancing untill I've got a great "Bonham'ish" picture that could be drum sound all by itself. This saves tracks, and time later(getting back the ballance that was there at tracking)...it'll take alot of time later to get the balance you have now...if ever. KEEP CHECKING RELATIVE PHASE ALL THE TIME.Learn to be allergic to phase. it is really quite obvious sounding; the more you become attune to it. Anyway, my most condensed rule is: Start with the big picture and then refine the details. If you start with getting the kit to sound good and in the right spot; then the room/ambient mic's;then the OH"s; and lastly the spot mic's wou'll improve your sounds immensely.
Starting traditionally; with the first kick mic(s) solo'd and having the drummer just hit his kick for five minutes while you EQ/compress/ballance the kick, then the snare, etc. will get you to the traditionally frankenstein sounding drums most people tend to record. By the time you get to the Rooms and OH's your relative phase is affected by the over EQ'd individual mic's you've allraedy worked. So at this point you'll satisfy yourself with a hasty room setup that adds some "room" to the sound but isn't really a wholistic part of the sound. So six weeks later when you or someone else brings up that kit they'll diss the room sound and start adding 'verb. Of coursse if the room itself sucks...run away from it. Use baffles, and get all the AIR out of the OH's. Refer to my OH mic techmique (or any other one that gets you there)...gotta run, or I'll be late for my downbeat
-recorderman, away....

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2001 3:49 am

Recorderman- any rock tracks online where you used this technique, that I can hear? I just want to hear how much cymbal you get out of it. Seems like I always wanted them higher, but this sounds way interesting. Anyone else have any tracks posted with this technique?
Do you typically need a kick mic with this technique, too, and I would assume the phase would need to be reversed on it. Correct?
Also, has anyone tried Harveys bottom feeder MXL 603s as overheads with a good preamp, yet? If so, how'd you like them?
Thanks!

Respected Past Moderator Joined: Mar 13, 2001 Posts: 1256

TubeDude-
The first record I've used this on was recorded last Jan. and probably won't be out till June of '02. same with everything after that. 1. Also; I usually use lots of mic's, but this takes a really balanced picture of the kit. I'd still stick one mic out front, even if it's not really close, to get a bit more kick (if your on the minimal path).
2. Even though the mics are low, there not right on top of the cymbals, so the cymbal balance is compareable to having the mics over the cymbals, but higher...

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