Overhead Phase

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2001 2:53 am

I realize this will get the kick and snare in phase, but what about everything else? Pretty good? I'm kind of a minimalist because I have to be when it comes to drums, I like kick/snare/pair, and maybe a room or two. Does this technique work out better than an xy pair as far as phase issues go?

Respected Past Moderator Joined: Mar 13, 2001 Posts: 1256

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by tubedude:
I realize this will get the kick and snare in phase, but what about everything else? Pretty good? I'm kind of a minimalist because I have to be when it comes to drums, I like kick/snare/pair, and maybe a room or two. Does this technique work out better than an xy pair as far as phase issues go?<hr></blockquote>
YES. but it's not just about phase....Notice how Rack toms are higher off the floor than the floor tom(s)? this Oh set-up is cognizant of that. The OH over the snare is higher than the right shoulder, So It captures the toms well...add tom mics and it'll be fine. Like I've said before...I use LOTS of mics when i can (i.e. big studio:lots of mic's,pre's and channels/busses). Or just use these OH's,a kick,snare and room mic as you've posed and you'll be well covered.

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2001 9:46 pm

RecorderMan,
Thank you for the info, it will go in my collection of "great stuff to have in a folder under the console".The room is big. I have two smaller ones that are alittle over 1/4th the size of the big one. All the rooms have 2 sheetrock walls and two "insulation exposed" walls. There is alot of stuff in the rooms. When you hit a snare you don't really hear a repeating delay. Depending on where you are you may hear one good slapback. 1. The band is heavy. Very melodic with lots of vocals. Kings X influence. I want to hear the toms very easily. The kick and snare need to seem pretty big. Lots of cool kick is very important to the band. I'm just guessing that I wont have a problem finding the snare in this room. 2. The rock stuff I have listened to latley has very stereo drums. Espically the cymbals. Alot of times they seem hard left and right. How wide is your overhead setup and how do you adjust to make t seem wider or narrower?

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2001 12:12 am

Hi RecorderMan,Tried ur setup this week. Works gr8, I really enjoyed it. Like U said, adding the rest of the mics was easy, like this setup was made 4 it.The sound was natural and clear. Stereo image was fine. Drums balance made sense.(Btw, Hack: the image is wide enough, 10x 2 the Haas effect: sound arriving at the mics at different times. Levels on the other hand r more equal (L&R) than in the AB case, and IMHO will trigger better when compressed. I did not compress while tracking, however I’ve played around with the SSL’s quad just 2 get a fair idea).1 more thing I’ve noticed: Since the cymbals are off-axis, and the snare’n’kick are on-axis, the snare and kick come out brighter in relation 2 the cymbals- This will b appreciated by any engineer recording enthusiastic drummers… Smile

I used cardioids, U might have guessed.The drummer looked somewhat suspiciously at the setup, thinking there was something wrong. I have assured him it was ok.After playing the 1st take and listening in the control room, he bowed and saluted in a humorous gesture of respect.10x 4 a gr8 tip,Peace,Zooot.

Respected Past Moderator Joined: Mar 13, 2001 Posts: 1256

Great to hera Zoot & Hack.BTW, I saw what I consider to be a very cool tip somewhere else on this board, regarding mic'ing drums. Someone reiterated the concept of using the floor tom to find the spot in the room where the floor tom itself is loudest. Then positionnig OH's to make it the loudest, then the rest of the drums,etc...sounds like fun. If you've got enough mics, try the 'old' top and bottom mic's on Snare & Toms. If youi have enough gates...gate each bottom mic;keyed by it's corresponding top mic. use a reange of 6-10db and belnd these in around -10db and out of phase to each said corresp[onding top mic. Comp each Top&bottom mic to a single track. You'll get ammazing botton...done right...check all phases...
Also...mic in kick & mick just outside of kick...comped to one track (=greate depth). Then stick another mic about three feet in front of kick (on it's own track or blended into a Room(s) comp track)........Or forget and go minimal....haver fun and keep impressing those clients!

Respected Past Moderator Joined: Mar 13, 2001 Posts: 1256

sorry for typos/spelling...I rushed and didn't check that last one...

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2001 12:29 am

Hi RecorderMan,On that session I used a variation of the FT trick:Since the room had a low(ish) ceiling and an angled glass wall (9’ x 11&#8217 ) separating an iso booth, the snare sound varied dramatically when moved around the room.I found the best spot 4 the snare by playing the drum while moving it around the room, and taped the stand 2 the floor. I then played the FT while moving it in a circle around the snare, covering all the possible placement spots, in relation 2 the snare. At the point where it sounded best (i.e. loud … Smile

) I taped the FT “legs” 2 the floor. Then the rest of the kit was added. When I know I’ll need a good ambient kick sound in the room mics, I’ll move the kick instead of the FT around the snare drum looking 4 the best spot.So there r 2 variants 2 control: kit’s placement and orientation.Since the kit’s position and orientation will affect the placement of other players and instruments (eye contact and separation), I do this first, when the room is empty.Good tip with the bottom micing. I can only add that when using SSL I’ll route the snare/ tom mics 2 adjacent channels on the mixer, cuz dynamics r easily keyed this way using the “>” button. This saves me additional gates / patching.10x again 4 sharing ur knowledge and expertise.Man, I love this forum.Peace,Zooot.

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2001 2:14 am

Zoot,
How did you aim the OHs? At the snare and FT? Did you EQ anything while you were tracking? Did you pan them hard L&R?I have a chance tomorrow to finally try this out. It will be in a small (10X10) room. I'll let you know how it works for me.

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2001 1:03 pm

Hi Hack,Just like RcorderMan said, 1 mic pointing @ the snare from above its centre, the other 1 aimed @ the snare, then tweaked a little outwards, till the kick is in the middle of the image. Re-check the distances from the kick and snare.The way it looks may mislead… both mics looking @ ~ the snare, the right (FT side) mic is lower and tilted. It doesn’t look symmetrical, but it IS.
Don’t look… it works. The cymbals r there, in nice stereo, sounding natural. Close mics “slide” comfortably in.Kick, snr, toms and mono room mics were eq’d, oh were panned 90% L&R. This was a tracking session, panning and eq may vary @ the mix.Good luck with ur session,Peace,Zooot.

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2001 3:50 am

I may have had my FT side mic aimed alittle too far out but this is best drum sound I've ever had. It finally sounds like a drum kit, not just a bunch of different drums with close mics. The stereo image on the cymbals was great. At this studio I don't have a stereo headphone mix in the drum room. I might be able to create some crazy Y cable gizmo to get the two available mixes into one stereo mix, but it would be a 30' Y cable. And the phones sound like shit at this studio anyway. (Headphone systems would be another great topic to hear about)It doesn't seem like there is a way to center the kick with mono phones. Am I stuck recording and moving and recording and moving and.....?

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2001 8:01 pm

Could you use one or two XLR lines for a headphone return? Also, what kind of studio doesn't have a stereo cue mix?

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2001 9:33 pm

THe one I work at

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2001 11:50 pm

nor does mine......

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2001 4:39 am

RECORDERMAN thanX for all your info on this OH-setup. Really dig it...One more question:
In a few weeks I'm gonna record a band of a friend of mine. It's a budget thing: I'm not gonna work in on of the studio's I normally like to track (cause they don't have the money), so we're going to record with the stuff I have at home. (it's gonna be a PT recording in their big rehearsal room.)
The band plays rock (Black Crowes kinda stuff).Because I have to do it with my "home stuff" I don't have much choice for the overhead setup.
It's gonne be a pair of AKG C3000's, or two (different) Neumann's: a M147 & U87.
(The pre's are Trident-MTA sig2)
What would you choose? The matched pair of C3000's or the U87 above the snare and the M147 on the FloorTom side??ThanX in advance!

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2001 3:22 pm

Hi guys, could any of you post an audio file of the results? I would love to hear it, but don't have a drummer on hand. thanks!!!

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