What should i look for in my new Studio PC?

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:57 am

If you want the best computer for music creation buy an Apple G5 dual 2 Ghz or better....
WHY:
1. Better bus speeds big time!
2. The OS has core audio!! not horrid drivers
3. No IRCs (conflicts)
4. PCX slots
5. FIREWIRE that actually works right
6. Integration and synergy thru-out all software
7. 64 bit processing with actual shared dual processor power
VERSES 32 bit cruddy overflow processing.
8. Macs are cheaper than ever actually!!!

I have only seen a few PCs that can almost hang with a G5 Dual...one was an alienware, which was quite a bit noisier, and fell short and costs 2 times more than the G5-so to all you people preaching pricing reasons for avoiding a mac, you are misinforming people.

Technology for PC is mostly developed on mac first!

The only reasons to stay in PC world-
1. You are limited to only being able to use Sony Acid Pro
2. You love horrible Direct X plug ins...lol
3. Viruses make you hot!!!
4. SOUNDFORGE<--this is nice I must admit
5. You like Microsoft alot and love when they spy on you
6. You believe in a company whose OS is so huge its gonna come on 12 dvds eventually, plus you love the fact nobody at microsoft can fix the bad windows code...Also you support the IRAA in full, and would love to turn in pirate software users like microsoft who pirated Sony apps...HAHAHAHA but activelly treated other mp3 ers and etc like larcenists and felons. Plus you love longhorn and paladin which will allow Bill Gates to get even richer by charging you for windows usage monthly WOW!!!

I'll stick to better apps, logical interfaces, integration with all apps smoothly, dual 64 bit processors, and Logic Pro 7.0 which by the way has the best amp simulation of all things even dedicated hardware.. Very Happy

, Faster bus speeds, Quieter design, better heat distro, and multiple other things.

You pc people are right about one thing there is no comparison!
I would recommend LINUX for PC'ers...then we got some competition, that is as soon as linux drums up some POPULAR software for music!

WHITE PAPER: I have yet to see the bite of the barking dog. I have heard many haters of macs come and go, but one thing remains quite constant-I have never seen the G5 Dual beaten YET!! And I know of many many studio that use pcs some of which are carillons, and other customs which outpriced the dual G5 but did the usual-got infected when introduced to the web, failed to play a DVD without droppin frames when tryin to multitask 2-3 apps..its embarrassing.

~TiK

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:12 am

Logic 7 Pro uses both processors and is 64 bit!
that ends that argument!

Windows handles dual processors wrong

I have seen the side by side comparisons WHOA not even close!

I know 10 people who use (actually push the hell out of the macs they own) and they have never crashed to this day...in fact the only mac I have ever witnessed crashing in recent os X is the emac, but we tried to kill it...and succeeded...thats the slowest mac though!

I use both systems because both computers have some decent software that the other doesnt offer! So it never hurts to have both if budget permits...but the G5 is not in the same league as a PC of any build...and this lies not in the unit...but in the quality of the overly overdue for a remake OS called windows XP...and to the dude sayin ME and XP are stable you have to be kidding right, I like 98SE better by far...XP is some crashin stuff, IE crashes more than any app I have ever seen....too bad that IE is the OS! Very Happy

Okay, I am done...bring me the exact numbers, let me see the test...pull up Cubase and use the same plugs-like something stable from waves, run the same number of tracks through a bi-platform I/O card ...so that we can measure the two machines consistantly...I have already done this!

IN THE REALWORLD...its perfectly feasable for one to make music without the use of 70+ plug ins and 128 streaming tracks!!! I remember a far better time when 4-8 tracks and skills out performed technology Very Happy

People have made great works on far inferior machines to todays specs...its the musician not the gear always;)

have fun making music,
~TiK

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:14 am

I have a feeling that this is going to start a very fun argument! Smile

I'll start.

Quote:

1. You are limited to only being able to use Sony Acid Pro

I use Cubase SX myself and love it.

Quote:

2. You love horrible Direct X plug ins...lol

VST, where all the exciting freeware plugs are written. UAD-1. TC Powercore.

Quote:

3. Viruses make you hot!!!

How are you going to get a virus? A proper DAW is not connected to the internet.

Quote:

4. SOUNDFORGE<--this is nice I must admit

Hell yeah! Smile

Quote:

5. You like Microsoft alot and love when they spy on you

Again, only on the internet, which you shouldn't be on in the first place.

Quote:

6. You believe in a company whose OS is so huge its gonna come on 12 dvds eventually, plus you love the fact nobody at microsoft can fix the bad windows code...Also you support the IRAA in full, and would love to turn in pirate software users like microsoft who pirated Sony apps...HAHAHAHA but activelly treated other mp3 ers and etc like larcenists and felons. Plus you love longhorn and paladin which will allow Bill Gates to get even richer by charging you for windows usage monthly WOW!!!

Crap. You got me there Sad

Looks like XP is it. It may be the end of the PC DAW if XP (which is stable, by the way) becomes obsolete.

Quote:

have fun making music

And that's the bottome line! Though it's still fun to have a freindly argument once and a while. Can't wait to see what Big_d or Randyman have to say....

Smile

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:04 pm

I'm confused...Why are we trying to talk him into a Mac now? It sounds like he wants info on putting together a PC, which can be great for DAW if you are willing to tweak and use good components. If you are unfamiliar with building a PC, then perhaps you should choose something ready-to-work, like a Mac.
Oh, and steer away from the usual PC brands (Dell, HP) if possible=They will usually compromise quality in one way or another. No real wisdom to impart here for you; just make sure you carry on with your research before going either route.

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:21 pm

Like I mentioned, you CAN get a fairly state-of-the-art PC (building it yourself) for about $800, and you will have NONE of the virus issues if set up properly (professional DAW's are not online).

My ~ $1500 home PC is a multi-use PC (lots of money in HD's alone - it's only a 2.8GHz 1Gig RAM - with one HD it is about a $1000 machine), and it can burn a DVD at 4X (I don't buy 8X media), burn a CD-R at 48X, surf the web, copy files between drives, and have all my "multitasking" virus and spyware apps running AT THE SAME TIME with ONE PROCESSOR (P4 HT, baby!). I see a dual G5 can do that, too. Geese - Id' hope a dual 2.0GHz processor machine could beat a "lowely" 2.8GHz home-made single proc PC machine Wink

.

So, maybe Mac does do Dual Procs better. So what? I don't think you are gonna get much more performance out of your PC software than a PROPERLY BUILT 3.4GHz P4 could offer (dual procs on PC's are advantageous, but I don't really see ANY need - did you see what I can multitask above with a comparitively SLOW 2.8GHz single processor w/o RAID and only 1Gig of RAM?). The Virus argument is valid, but NOT for a professional DAW w.o internet connectivity (like my second dedicated tracking DAW - Shuttle XPC - I mentioned previously).

If I stuffed my machine full of 4 Gigs of RAM, I bet there is not much it couldn't do (I only have 1 stinking Gig!). NTM - Overclocking (when done right in a stable manner) can yeild mind boggling RAM improvements which translate into more avalible "work" to keep the P4's pipelines slammed full of bits (a good thing). Their performance is jaw dropping at times.

Mac's ARE cool if you don't mind the limited options, expensive software, limited hardware, but want it to work w/o fuss. PC's are cool if you are a "car" type dude, and like to really get to know what you have avalible, and go with it in any direction you want to ("No Holds Barred"). It's obvious what kind of guy I am (I'm also building my first hardware Mic Pre, and a LA-2A DIY compressor is in store, too!). How many Mac guys would consider themselves "DIY'ers"? Maybe there is a reason for that (don't want to worry about the easy tweaks needed on a PC? The same reason Mac guys have their oil changed by JiffyLube for 4x the cost of oil and filter Wink

). DIY. PS - I've been to some of the Mac forums - you guys DO have crashes, freezes, OS upgrade nightmares, incompatibilities, DOA components, you name it. Some of the Mac forums I checked out seemed worse than PC forums (well, not quite).

Anyway - They are both good, but I'm a PC guy. Cool

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:13 pm

Run your DAW software on a Mac for now, if you must. But be forewarned that Linux is lurking behind the corner, ready to overtake not only Windows but OS X.

By the time that happens, any computer you buy today will be obsolete, but do yourself a favor and learn how to use Linux so you'll be ready when the time comes.

I hold open the possibility that I have completely lost my mind.

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:28 pm

Shurely Cubase SL and SX have true multiprocessor support on both Macs & PCs, as do OSX and XP.

If you use something else, YMMV, but as a lifetime Cubase user and user of both PCs and Macs, I can't see the difference.

As a musician, I'd rather not go through the hassle of building a PC ever again. I have built probably 100 or so in my lifetime, provide countless hours of support to clients and friends against my better judgement, and who rings me time & time again - the PC users. I gave up doing it - what I could build did run better - but component quality is infinitely variable even at the high end - I have sent back more motherboards can I care to mention, and as for RAM - ever run a memory check on some of the RAM thats sold? Its like Swiss Frickin Cheese.

I can support the argument of Macs never crashing. My G4 PB and my G5 dual both never have. I have not only lost takes on a PC several times, but also had mixes ruined by glitches being generated by CPU stutters (Dell mind you).

Its as said above - if you are prepared to buy quality and build it, you'll get a PC for the same as a Mac, maybe less, but ensure the components are quality and you are confident in doing this.

For my money, the Apple Refurb store is genius. Computers that had something wrong with them, now its fixed (you think about that for a second - how many times you bought something "new" thats had 3 visits back to the shop before it settled in the studio - is it still new then?) - therefore in my mind more reliable - with full warranty.

I've kitted my studio out with a dual G5 and 3 Studio Displays for around half retail! Thats my advice - if you are already a PC guy, build and check out the Shuttle unit - otherwise get a refurbed Mac with Kingston memory and full warranty, which will work straight out the box and give you back 20 hours of your valuable time.

J

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:08 pm

New Macs at 1/2 Price are nothing to shake a stick at! (Read that as - "Macs at 1/2 price sound incredibly tempting"). A very good point, Jeemy. This may be an answer for many prospective Mac/PC buyers who are on the fence, and don't like to look under the hood of a PC. PS - I test every stick of RAM I use...

michaeltk's Linux comment is also a likely scenario (Linux is run commonly in mission-critical applications {Like our 10 On-Air Video Servers}, but not yet in the DAW world) Come ON!!! Linux DAW Software would RULE!!!.

Cool

Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:23 am

Yeah , I've built four Intel computers with the most blazingly fast
CPU's and the best sound and video cards. And if you do multiple
work on them they always wind up choking in the middle of a 32 track recording with multiple effects recording to hard drive thru Cubase SX2. So I too bought a G4 Powerbook 1.5 with a Gig of DDR
and a Opitical Superdrive DVD-R and switched to Logic Pro and man o man what a difference. NEVER..a skip or a lag. Just got a
RME Fireface 800, and a LaCie d2 Extreme Bigger Disk 1.6 Terabytes triple interface hard drive running on the new 800 Firewire in Raid 0. I luvvv my Mac, gonna get Reaktor 4 next month.
I'm running a Access Virus KC, Alesis Andromeda A6, Korg Triton Pro
76, MS2000B, and a EMU Proteus 2500 sound Module. I like Trance,
Experimental, and Dark Gothic, some Ambient. Also use Spectrasonics' Atmosphere. Favorite group: Neverborne

Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 1:39 pm

So, are you comparing a Mac with a 3-disk RAID array to a PC with a single 7200RPM IDE drive? Or did the PC have RAID as well? Did the PC at least have one dedicated Audio HD (compared to your Mac's RAID)? That DOES come into play with higher track counts, and adding RAID to a PC can also yeild insane benfeits for high track counts (32 tracks is not all that many though).

Just curious - were those 4 PC's "online" and multitasked, or dedicated DAW's with optimized OS's? And what kind of Memory were you running? (What speed, how much, what latency, dual channel mode?). Did you have HT running? Seems odd for a new PC to "choke" on only 32 tracks if built + setup properly... Just wondering (unless you had viruses?).

Cool

Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 1:56 pm

David French wrote:

Quote:

3. Viruses make you hot!!!

How are you going to get a virus? A proper DAW is not connected to the internet.

uh? ah! what? hahaha! if you let yourself limit to not being on the internet with your daw computer it's really your own fault. i own a mac and since i do i've been on the internet always, always with my computer that also houses my daw software. the only thing that annoys me is the occasional spam mail that escapes mail's spam filters. and that's occasional, really. there simply is no argument for not being on the internet apart from being a pc user trying to defend his investment. sorry for you, dude...!

talking about dual processors: mac os x assigns the task at hand to the processor that is free at the moment. there isn't a reason for software to be "dual processor compliant" on mac os x anymore. just so ya know...

i paid 1100 euros or so for my ibook (a little more for the ram) and while it's not the fastest computer on earth it handles its job beautifully, while being on the internet... Smile

as for logic 7: i'm waiting for an update, the current version is not as stable as we were used to from 5 and 6. other than that it's a cool programm with killer features, synths and effects...

Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:13 pm

Randyman... wrote:

So, are you comparing a Mac with a 3-disk RAID array to a PC with a single 7200RPM IDE drive? Or did the PC have RAID as well? Did the PC at least have one dedicated Audio HD (compared to your Mac's RAID)? That DOES come into play with higher track counts, and adding RAID to a PC can also yeild insane benfeits for high track counts (32 tracks is not all that many though).

Just curious - were those 4 PC's "online" and multitasked, or dedicated DAW's with optimized OS's? And what kind of Memory were you running? (What speed, how much, what latency, dual channel mode?). Did you have HT running? Seems odd for a new PC to "choke" on only 32 tracks if built + setup properly... Just wondering (unless you had viruses?).

Hey Randyman, Why don't you post a small well written handbook on setting up a PC DAW, (not to be hooked up to the net),with all that valuable information and we can all try your setup procedures on our PC's and see for ourself how effectively your setup process is! That should end all arguments. And yes all my PC were in fact hooked up to an online connection I game with FPSers online with same computers. BUT..I also game with my Apple Powerbook and no problem with that daw setup!

Cool

Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:34 pm

I don't like Apples retail price structure either,but it has it's benefits in that you aren't lured into spending countless dollars on getting your computer up to par. It works best out of the box. The PC is a "monkey on your back gotta keep up with the next generation hardware, endless money hole dump solution in search of the always changing perfect solution"! And I change my own oil on my 150 horsepower, 299 lb. 96' Honda CBR900RR ...no Jiffylube for me!! You pay a little extra on Apple wares because there Evolutions give more benefits with less evolving. Here's a parallel
Owning an Apple is like taking an elevator to five floors a floor for every upgrade. Owning the perfect PC is like taking the stairs from the bottom to the top of a sixty story building, each floor being an upgarde! With a PC by the time you get to the top your either exhausted or dead or both,not to mention your wallet......

Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:02 pm

I agree that not everyone likes to tweak under the hood of their PC, but this is necessary (just like tuning a car for the 1/4 mile is different than tuning for SCCA tracks).

I'm surely NOT the one to write an online manual, but the tweaks are simple, and once you do them once, it is a peice of cake. One that comes to mind is the "Processor Scheduling", needs to be set to "background services". Plug-ins are "background services", and allocating more processor power to them greatly lessens skips/stutters.

Also, disable "Themes and Visual Styles" - this makes XP look like 98SE, and frees up the power needed to process these "cute" XP styles. Also - disable System Restore if comfortable doing so. The Indexing Service can also be disabled.

There are quite a few services that can safely be disabled - to varying degrees depending on your level of dedication to the DAW.

Making sure Acoustic Management is turned "off" for te AUdio HD, and also make sure the UDMA speeds are reported correctly for your audio drive.

Dual-Booting is a KILLER way to retain Internet and a DAW optimized OS on the same PC. I highly recommend that, and you can still play your FPS games online, too!

And, how does upgrading your PC "wear you out"? Windows XP w SP-2 is BELOW $98, and updates are a quick stop to Windows Update.com. If you mean Hardware, I can't see how Mac and PC would differ on the Hardware - both will become obsolete and non-copatible with newer hardware, right?

Anyway, I gotta go to a meeting... Cool

Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:42 am

tik777 wrote:

If you want the best computer for music creation buy an Apple G5 dual 2 Ghz or better....
WHY:
1. Better bus speeds big time!
2. The OS has core audio!! not horrid drivers
3. No IRCs (conflicts)
4. PCX slots
5. FIREWIRE that actually works right
6. Integration and synergy thru-out all software
7. 64 bit processing with actual shared dual processor power
VERSES 32 bit cruddy overflow processing.
8. Macs are cheaper than ever actually!!!

I have only seen a few PCs that can almost hang with a G5 Dual...one was an alienware, which was quite a bit noisier, and fell short and costs 2 times more than the G5-so to all you people preaching pricing reasons for avoiding a mac, you are misinforming people.

Technology for PC is mostly developed on mac first!

The only reasons to stay in PC world-
1. You are limited to only being able to use Sony Acid Pro
2. You love horrible Direct X plug ins...lol
3. Viruses make you hot!!!
4. SOUNDFORGE<--this is nice I must admit
5. You like Microsoft alot and love when they spy on you
6. You believe in a company whose OS is so huge its gonna come on 12 dvds eventually, plus you love the fact nobody at microsoft can fix the bad windows code...Also you support the IRAA in full, and would love to turn in pirate software users like microsoft who pirated Sony apps...HAHAHAHA but activelly treated other mp3 ers and etc like larcenists and felons. Plus you love longhorn and paladin which will allow Bill Gates to get even richer by charging you for windows usage monthly WOW!!!

I'll stick to better apps, logical interfaces, integration with all apps smoothly, dual 64 bit processors, and Logic Pro 7.0 which by the way has the best amp simulation of all things even dedicated hardware.. Very Happy

, Faster bus speeds, Quieter design, better heat distro, and multiple other things.

You pc people are right about one thing there is no comparison!
I would recommend LINUX for PC'ers...then we got some competition, that is as soon as linux drums up some POPULAR software for music!

WHITE PAPER: I have yet to see the bite of the barking dog. I have heard many haters of macs come and go, but one thing remains quite constant-I have never seen the G5 Dual beaten YET!! And I know of many many studio that use pcs some of which are carillons, and other customs which outpriced the dual G5 but did the usual-got infected when introduced to the web, failed to play a DVD without droppin frames when tryin to multitask 2-3 apps..its embarrassing.

~TiK

David, Thanks for taking half of this, nice job

I can't believe we have to rehash this again for another poor misinformed soul, but here goes.

First to your ludicrous argument that the MAC is faster. We professionals in the computer world use a thing called benchmarks to verify a manufactuers claims of performance. These benchmarks test individual components as well as real world tests of software. The MAC you speak of is so woefully inadequate that Apple had to cheat to beat even off the shelf PC's. Here is the link, please read it to the bottom before posting anymore of this silliness.

http://spl.haxial.net/apple-powermac-G5/

Let's cover some of your statements

1. Better bus speeds big time!

While the FSB speeds on PC's may be at 800MHz currently the next generation will easily surpass the Apple's 1.2GHz within the year on the next generation PC's which are in the pipeline. Apple however has no answer for the nearly 1GHz difference between it's fastest processor and those of Intel and AMD and the gap will only widen. Apple has nothing in the pipeline!

2. The OS has core audio !! not horrid drivers

So in other words no way to improve it. Drivers allow code to be changed and improved. With Apple your stuck with what they give you. Nice!

3. No IRC's (conflicts)

Darn, No Internet Relay Chat. Perhaps you meant IRQ's. You really should get rid of Win 95 and your old Legacy hardware. I haven't had an IRQ conflict since 3.1 but then again I know how to avoid such things.

4. PCX slots,

BTW it's PCI-X slots but just so you know these are not exclusive to MAC. They are most usefull for 3D video (gaming) something you don't want to do on a MAC. MAC's are about as bad as it gets for gaming.

5. FIREWIRE that actually works right

Again I've never had a problem with PC based firewire. Perhaps your doing something wrong.

6. Integration and synergy thru-out all software

???, Well you got me there! Maybe it's because hardly any exists so integration is easy. Again I have no problems.

7. 64 bit processing with actual shared dual processor power
VERSES 32 bit cruddy overflow processing.

UH, there's this little company called AMD who puts out a 64 bit processor and dual CPU MOBO's. Intel also has dual CPU MOBO's and the next generation CPU's are all 64 bit. BTW it's not shared processing but paralell processing something Intel has been doing longer than Apple. Also most Apple software is 32 bit and must be recompiled to run in a 64 bit environment but it's still native 32 bit. Most Apple software cannot take advantage of dual processors so your point is moot, however I will check into your Logic 7.

8. Macs are cheaper than ever actually!!!

Really, you call 3 grand without a monitor cheap Very Happy

Quote:

I have only seen a few PCs that can almost hang with a G5 Dual...one was an alienware, which was quite a bit noisier, and fell short and costs 2 times more than the G5-so to all you people preaching pricing reasons for avoiding a mac, you are misinforming people.

Now your just making stuff up. I've done the benchmarks myself and seen the results of many highly respected labs and they all say the MAC is way slower than even the Dell P4 3.0 let alone a purpose built PC. Seriously man did you think we were going to buy this.

Quote:

Technology for PC is mostly developed on mac first!

You know drugs are illegal, right. Very Happy

Let's see technology borrowed from MAC for PC's
1. SCSI
2. 1394

Technology borrowed from PC's for MAC
1. PCI
2. AGP
3. PCI Express
4. IDE
5. SATA
6. VGA Graphics
7. SVGA Graphics

Look's like your right again. The list goes on but I'll stop here.

Quote:

You pc people are right about one thing there is no comparison!
I would recommend LINUX for PC'ers...then we got some competition, that is as soon as linux drums up some POPULAR software for music!

You better hope Linux doesn't take over too soon or your gonna be sitting on a $3,000 paperweight. Linux will be the death nell of MAC's. PC's will be the only platform sans Windows of course.

Quote:

WHITE PAPER: I have yet to see the bite of the barking dog. I have heard many haters of macs come and go, but one thing remains quite constant-I have never seen the G5 Dual beaten YET!! And I know of many many studio that use pcs some of which are carillons, and other customs which outpriced the dual G5 but did the usual-got infected when introduced to the web, failed to play a DVD without droppin frames when tryin to multitask 2-3 apps..its embarrassing.

The dog is sitting on your desktop and it shouldn't bite as it's your dog isn't it. The real embarrassment is to Apple for having to cheat to beat the lowly PC. Imagine using the Apple complier on the PC, disabling dual processing on the PC, disabling hyper threading on the PC and still barely eeking out a win. Now that's embarassing.

Perhaps you'd like to post some benchmarks for your MAC as it seems to be the only one in the world capable of beating a PC. I am curious as to why if the dual G5 is so superior to the dual XEON why hasn't every (or any) corporation switched to the G5 for it's LAN and WAN servers.

Quote:

and to the dude sayin ME and XP are stable you have to be kidding right,

No I'm not kidding. BTW it's 2K and XP not ME. You obviously have very little experience with computing of any kind judging by your comments above. Again it comes down to knowledge, if you are having problems with stability in XP perhaps you should look into your hardware, software or your setup in general. I have no such problems and many others don't as well. It all comes down to the user. I deal with around 1,000 PC's and 50 or so MAC's every day and the MAC is no longer any more stable than the PC thanks to XP and 2K. As I've stated many times before I like MAC's and PC's and everyone should choose what they like but don't try tell us the MAC is faster.

Now seriously man, if you have something to bring to the table, bring it, show us some real world numbers. If not save the fantasy for those who might believe it.

Quote:

have fun making music

Now you're making sense!