violin mics?

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:05 am

FifthCircle wrote:

Jeremy-

I must say that I see your description of the AKG 460 as warm to be a complete polar opposite of what I would describe them as.

Compared to 451's, I think they are smoother and I haven't tried the 480 (although I've heard they are much smoother), but I use 460's regularly and I'd never describe them as warm. Rather, I find them rather strident. I've used them on violin sections numerous times (one of the halls I work in has a ton of them) and I always end up grinning and bearing it- but I'm never happy with the sound. I'd rather use an SM-81 than a 460 any day- especially on high strings.

--Ben

I'm curious - are you using the capsule adapter and then using the capsules from the 451s? Agreed, this would be over the top bright. (I've used them like this a few times and found them to be unworkably bright, much like the 451s of yesteryear).

A strident mic would be one with either a serious scoop in the critical mids, or a significant boost centered in the 5k region. The original 460 with the ULS/61 cap has neither of these. As a matter of fact, when paired with the older (460 vs 480) body, they exhibit a slight roll-off in the near-ultra-sonic frequencies.

I recently recorded a fantastic solo violinist in a live concert doing the 4 seasons. I used an overhead 460 as a spot on her and never regretted it. I'll post some samples on my web-page soon. (Though I'll send you the link - I'm not making these "public" yet.)

It's funny that none of us have mentioned perhaps the best violin mic I've ever heard - the DPA 4061 IMK. This mic won't work too well for live performances, but for studio stuff, it rocks. And it's damned cheap too!!!

J...

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:00 pm

Thanks for mentioning that Cucco. I don't know why but I thought the 4061 was more for live performances. Did you use the attachment for placing it on the violin? It definately falls into my price range.

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:08 pm

We've used the 4061's for close miking strings on pop records, combined with a stereo pair of B&Ks. There are several ways of attaching it to the violin, but it would typically be placed underneath the strings, just behind the bridge pointing towards the fingerboard. While it works very well for that kind of music (and we've used them live as well), I'm not sure how suitable they are for recording solo classical violin...

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:21 pm

Jeremy-

I've used both actually. The hall that I work in (and the studio where I use them) have 460/CK61's but my colleague who's mics I work with sometimes has the 460/CK1 (with the adapter).

I actually think the CK1 capsule sounds a tad bit better than the newer CK61 cap.

With the 460, I think the best capsule, though, is the CK3 (hypercardiod) with the omni as a close second.

--Ben

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:02 pm

It is strange that we differ so significantly on our opinions of these mics. I agree, the omni cap is the best one for this body, but I really don't find them to be strident at all. Much better than KM184s. True, not as warm as the MKH40, but I would even go as far as to say a similar tonality to the CMC5-MK4. Though, I prefer the Schoeps immensly b/c they have a smoothness that is undefinable where I feel the AKGs are more "granule?."

j...

Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:11 pm

Jeremy,

Your mention of the CMC6/MK4 as "warm" reminds me that Gershwin had it right-- tomato for you, tomahto for me. I don't find the MK4 the least bit warm with that 12kHz bump. In fact, aside from the MK21 (SORT of a cardioid) the only cardioid Schoeps that leans toward warm is the MK41 hypercard, but this greatly depends on one's personal definition of "warm." And as an owner of the MK5 and 6, I think they are less warm than the 4.

I'll agree that it is warm compared to the hotly-discussed 451 (my personal nominee for "sonic migraine headache"), but that is REALLY damning iwth faint praise!

Can anyone suggest a cardioid that is warm like an SF12/24 is warm?

Rich

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:30 am

Rich,

I wouldn't classify any mic that has the Schoeps characteristic 12K bump as bright. A bump in this frequency range does not a bright mic make. If there were a significant bump an octave lower, than yes, I would call this a bright mic. But the Schoeps bump is mild and in a freq range that, if miced at an appropriate distance, only assists with HF rolloff.

To me, what makes the Schoeps CMC 64 warm is the way in which it handles the critical midrange with such smoothness and lack of distortion and build-up.

I don't think there is a condensor that is "as warm as the SF12." If there were, I would question it's build.

J...

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:22 pm

On a semi related note, I recorded 1.5 hours of viola yesterday (intended for audition submission to some of the biggie orchestras...)

We tried:

ADK A51 Ser III - close, but no cigar
Shure SM87 - very good sounding, but more "fiddle" than violin/viola
AT 4041 - OK, just not what we wanted
RCA SK46 Ribbon (ca. 1950) - Bingo! The warmth and character of the viola came through...I thought (as did the client) that it was the best sound her instrument has ever recorded...(she's done quite a bit)

FWIW: Since all my 'decent' pres were being set up at a remote session, all I had to work with were the internals from a Mackie d8b...and it all came out one HELL of a lot better than I thought it would....

K

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:52 pm

FWIW: Since all my 'decent' pres were being set up at a remote session, all I had to work with were the internals from a Mackie d8b...and it all came out one HELL of a lot better than I thought it would....

And why d'yer suppose that is....?

(I know very little about the d8b, but it doesn't surprise me to hear something like that.)

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:08 pm

Quote:

And why d'yer suppose that is....?

(I know very little about the d8b, but it doesn't surprise me to hear something like that.)

Joe, one of the early (unjustly?) labels given to the d8b was the preamp situation...they are not XDRs, but fairly close....and since the ribbon mic in question has such little output, I essentially had to max the preamp gain - not always the best choice for classical music I think...

I expected a bit of harshness (none detected), some grit (I don't hear it if its there...) and just 'less' of what my mind told me whas needed...and I was very pleasantly surprised...

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:58 pm

Interesting! I wondered about the mic pre's on the D8B....I'd just assumed they are the same VLZ Pro XDR preamps as all the others.

As for the gain, yes...also weird. I've always assumed you should have a separate preamp with a ribbon mic (but then again, I've tried the SF-12 with the ONYX, and had a good amount of usuable gain with it....go figure.)

It's nice to get good results when you're forced to work outside of your comfort zone, eh?

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:40 am

Very much so...and different.

Joe, on your Onyx mixer, can you assign each mixer track to its own DAW track?

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:30 am

The ONYX firewire adapter has both WDM and ASIO drivers, and it will give you separate outs for each channel, plus a 2-mix of the whole thing. (Good for backup, CDr, etc.)

The digital outs are PRE everything (including the eq), which is fine w/me, but worth knowing about before you buy. Instead of repeating myself here ad nauseum, there is a more detailed thread on this over in the "Recording Studio" section, and I've been answering some questions there as well about the ONYX. I think a few folks here are also using one. (Tom has one, too, i see...)

There is a 2-ch digital return as well, so you can play back from the computer via the console. (they suggest it's a great option mp3's for intermission and all kinds of silly things, but the main use is probably for just 2channel PB monitoring in project studios.)

It's NOT a digital board like the d8b or the new Digital X bus. It is still very much an analog board with all the usual goodies, but it's got the digital sends for each channel, plus the 2 mix return. That's really all it does in terms of digital recording, but IMHO it does it very well. If you're doing full out in-studio digital production with live bands and overdubs, digital FX on the fly, it may not be what you're looking for. The latency is pretty low (depending on your host computer, of course), but again, I don't use it for that....just live tracking on remotes.

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:05 pm

Any recommendations for a preamp for recording solo violin? I was looking at the Grace 101, but there doesn't seem to be much else in that price range. GT Brick?

p.s. I'm still unsure, but am leaning toward the AT4050 as the mic.

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:32 pm

The Grace 101 is a fine option as is the Brick! (They are two VERY different sounds though.) I would also seriously consider the Summit Audio 2B-A221 - single channel pre roughly the same price as the Grace.

J...

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