My vocals keep clipping?

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:26 am

The only thing I use the Composer for is the de-esser and gating. Trust me...That compressor is turned off.

I have to rely on the meager dollars I get and the gifts I receive. I can't spend an entire paycheck on a single piece of equipment again. I'm doing that already with the new Rode mic.

I know that I'm no expert here. I'm simply trying to get something that sounds good. Something that will be worth of tracking a demo so I can get VO *jobs*...not volunteer for everything, like fan dub projects and PC game MODs.

This is what was meant to do, and all I need is some sage advice from people who have been there. All I need is "good enough" right now. When the gigs come, then the upgrades happen, but no sooner.

Kurt, if you're referring to an earlier post, please link it, so you don't have to retype something, but if not, please e-mail me and let me know why you're banging your head against the wall.

I just need some help here guys. That's why I started reading these forums.

Thanks and regards,
Brad Venable
Voice For Hire, LLC

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:45 pm

I do voiceover. Last thing I need is to help someone else, who likely has alot better voice than me, do better... Last guy I(Kindly?) took along to a casting director for on-camera auditions has been in many national commercials since. I have been in... ahh... one? Oh well, I'm stupid... and old. Old and stupid.

Before we even get to "The List" of neccessaries for VO, there is one needed item for all who record with computer, VO or not(Any damned Dell TV special computer can record/play more tracks than anyone has ever needed in the history of sound, so, the computer itself is no matter at all. Use what you have.) so I'll start with #0.

0. The sound card. For me, just one brand - Lynx. Are they the best? Well, yes, they are. I will likely upgrade my LynxOne to a LynxTwo "A" model, I think, the one with 4 analog in's/4 analog out's, with converters and options good enough for feature-film work. If you actually need more converters, Lynx(Very soon, they say...) will sell them too. Digital I/O is accomodated. I use the AES/EBU where needed. Technically, I don't need a mixer either, just a headphone amp(Kindly included in ALL the cheapest amplified "computer-type" speakers.), but... I'd have one anyway(The more knobs, switches, lights, etc., you have, the more professional you are.)...

One more thing before we get started. Who do you do VO, from home, for? 90% of mine is done for people who "monitor" with the 2" speakers that are on either side of a cheap TV. Keep this in mind when you're out there spending your hard-earned on some of this garbage. At least don't let it worry you much if you can't buy all of this fun stuff immediately. It's for YOU, not "them". If they were concerned about your VO, you'd be going to a real studio to do it, with a real engineer on the other side of the glass. Most of the people we work with, for VO, would be happy with two tin cans and a string, if we'd let them get away with it.

Onward.

1. For VO, the first thing is the recording space itself. As it's "just" VO, maybe the space can be smaller and cheaper than a studio for a 5 piece band... Still, do as much as possible to make your recording space "DEAD". Add everything else IN THE MIX.

2. Best possible microphone(Sometimes.). Again, as we can add everything we want IN THE MIX, we don't even WANT a mic that "gives us" anything! No "SOUND OF IT"S OWN"! How a mic can be "worked" is more important than how it sounds, perse... True, a mic that might be great for a screaming car commercial might be completely wrong for a medical narration, but more because of what it picks-up that we don't want(Mouth noises, for instance), than for how un-realistically wonderful it makes our voices sound...

So? What? Barring the confusing option of having one of every mic ever made and that you've got to start somewhere: My choices(Not the only choices, certainly, just those based on my personal experience) is one dynamic, one condenser. Like an Electrovoice RE-20 and an AKG C414B ULS(There's a "new" designation now, I forget. ). Each might have it's own uses. If only one, as much as I'd not worship it, the RE-20 dynamic would be my "sole" mic of choice.

2. Best possible preamp. Solid-state. Nothing else. No EQ, no Dee-essing, no compression, etc. ALL of that we can, later, do IN THE MIX. Of course, you COULD use all of those things going in, but, if you get halfway through a project(That someone is SCREAMING FOR!!!) and you think, "Gee, I wish I hadn't compressed that quite so much...", you're stuck. Best to get the VO "DOWN", ON TAPE(Or , into the computer) BARE, RAW, UNADULTERATED, so you can do what you want, un-do it, do it again, etc. Same goes for the "SOUND OF THE ROOM". It might have a "nice" sound... Unless that's not the sound you want for this VO! Then you're stuck. Of course a fine tube mic or pre "might" be great? When you have the coin, buy them, use them when they are great, for the application at hand, period.

Point? Don't get stuck with "a sound", anywhere in the system, that you cannot change.

Quick stop: Do you "know" tubes? Do you want to learn tubes? Can you learn tubes today? If you aren't sure of any of these questions - stay away from tubes. Wonderous creatures - mythical even(Mostly?).

A for instance: If, one day, "your sound" isn't the same as it was yesterday... is it "the tube"? Do you have the best tube? Is the tube working properly? Even if tubes are "the best", I can't know..... I just don't know...... I must leave tubes to the tube people(Of which I am not one - and I lived through the last of the tube era!). I will have tube gear when I don't have to depend on it. Period. My tube pre channel strip, purchased with not enough thought/knowledge, sits there in the rack... looking at me... dark(Turned off.)... Until I have time to play with it(It's been more than a year since it was last on...)...

3. Run the preamp into the audio recorder directly(No run-arounds, overs or throughs.). Best way today? Mic to pre to A/D to sound card. Some pres have A/D's... none I've seen that I'd buy, so far. Most pre converters are "add-ons". Uh-uh... Not for me. Again, with my Lynx, I don't need an external A/D(Or D/A) at all.

4. How to hear what you do? A mixer is fine for listening, monitoring, plugging your speakers into(Sometimes.), playing your keyboard/synth through, or running your vinyl turntable through(When you're between VO jobs.). Best possible??? I don't know. Whatever has the jacks you need. I like my old Mackie 1202 vlz. Truth? I'm using the Mackie pre('s, I only need one.), right into the only analog inpout the LynxOne has. I monitor with the Mackie - phones and speakers. I do everything through the Mackie. Sounds fine, damnit. No complaints from the video folks(Except, WHERE IS THE VO, TEDDY!!!???!!!). For a mixer, I'd prefer..? Doesn't matter(Cause it just doesn't matter.).

With my LynxTwo "A", I'd run the mic to the pre, the pre to the sound card analog #1 in. Out of the card, I plug my amplified speakers right into Lynx analog out pair #1. My mixer into Lynx in pair #2 and out pair #2 - they don't meet or match. I don't care. Except for my headphones! Worst part could be the mixer screwing with my headphone sound? When the bucks are heavy I'll buy a better headphone preamp(Like maybe the Grace? God! What a price!). Then the mixer will truly be relegated to ONLY "other" crap, period... Alright, if you do VO, for a living, get the headphone amp first! The mixer(For "play"), if you want one, later... They even make these little widgets for $99 bucks, that you can go from sound card out to speakers/phones, with volume controls for either/both. Maybe one of those(Probably no worse than the Mackie? I don't know.)? Or the Grace? My VO just isn't that good...(For any of this?)

5. Speakers/phones. You can't buy the best speakers - nobody can - as no one can agree what those are? Even if they suddenly did, tommorow there would be new "better" models. Don't even play that game. VO is mid-range. Any speaker can "do" mid-range. The teensy speakers in your computer video monitor can "do" mid-range. Get the ones you think would look best in your room and you'll be fine. On the other ear, get high-priced phones - spend $200.00! More? Goal would be to hear how you sound, as best as possible, as you are working the mic, before you "hit" anything else. Brand/model? Who knows? Spend more than the other guy and he won't be able to complain... If nothing else. NOTHING ELSE! YOU CAN afford really fancy phones, so... go ahead... Try your best to hear yourself how you really are, then, do what you want...

My place(If/when I have the budget):

Mics: RE-20 - AKG C414 - Plus, any tube mic that costs more than my old pickup truck. There is a "shotgun" mic, by Sennheiser, that I'd get to play with. Some people use them for VO. I'd have to have one, just because...

Preamps: John Hardy(With the switch to switch in/out the optional Jensen transformer). Pendulum Quartet Tube Channel Strip(Because even I don't believe everything I say..! It Is s-o-c-o-o-l...). When the bucks are flowing, a Doug Fern tube mic pre(With the tube compressor, what the Hell.), will be an extremely haughty addition to my rack.

Speakers: Emes "Blacks" with their "Amber" "sub" woofer. Again, speakers don't matter for VO(They really don't), so I'd be buying them because they are "point source"(Tweeter right in the middle of the main speaker cone), and I've always wanted to try a good pair of those. I could listen to the Beach Boys on them, I guess? Maybe go out and get a Diana Krall, CD? I don't know who she is, but her recordings are probably digital(To show off my system better than the BB's old analog stuff.) and with a name like "Krall", she has to sound good... For now(Emes Blacks/with Amber being 3000+), I'm upgrading to Yamaha SP5's(Isn't that the right #?), with their "sub"(Which is too big(10") to go with them, but who cares? The Beach Boys won't. Diana Krall? I don't know if she'll care..?), They'll be fine.

Phones: I have Beyer Dynamic DT-770's. Great? I don't know. Best I could pay for at the time. The ones you buy that cost more than mine will be better for sure...

Teddy G.

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:37 am

Nice job, Teddy! I just got a Beyer M160 for my VO work, replacing my workhorse RE-20. I have sworn by the RE for sooooo long as a VO mic, but my voice has changed a bit over the years and I was ready for a change. But I believe that everyone out there putting live sound to tape/HD should have at least one of those. I just took that RE and put it in front of a big band horn section that I record every so often. 1001 uses!
I would add that, for phones, I have used the Sennheiser HD280s for a while, and for my $100.00 these are great, with little bleed-through. As for a 'phones' amp, I bought a Rane headphone amp at a garage sale for...$10.00!!! It beats anything in a mixer, is louder than my wife on her cell phone to the kids, and Rane stuff is very sturdy stuff. That Grace is kinda $$$$.
Teddy, you mentioned in another post that you were told to replace the 12ax7 tube in your dbx pre with a Mullard. Have you looked into this at all? Is that socketed or is it soldered into place?
I have a buddy with a keyboard-based studio and he wants to upgrade his mic pre's on a Tascam DMX24 to a dbx 376..what do you think based on your experiences?

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:42 pm

Teddy,

Are the Yamaha monitors the MSP5As?

That is the only model that has SP5 in it at all...

And guys, if I'm running everything directly into the DAW, then if I'm still using phones to monitor, where should I plug them in, the computer, or rig them up another way?

(I don't have a headphone amp, and right now, I'm plugged directly into the Audigy4 external box. Is there a better way to do this?)

Thanks,
Brad Venable

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:46 pm

You might try taking the stereo line output from the sound card and putting THAT into one of the stereo input channels on the Yamaha, then dialing that up as a headphones amp ONLY. That would get the Yammie out of the "true signal path" and it wouldn't affect the actual recorded audio quality. For what it's worth, the Yamaha's phones output is very sensitive to the impedance of the phones you are using (a common issue with mixers). You would need to consult the owners' manuals for both pieces.

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:30 pm

Great....the Yamaha manual says the phones' jack has an output impedance of 100 ohms, and the acceptable impedance is 40 ohms.

And the headphones are rated for 60 ohms.

Bleh.

Now what?

Brad Venable

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:41 pm

What Yamaha is saying is that your phones have to be a MINIMUM of 40 ohms...You should be OK with that. Some headphone circuits get real touchy about the load they are "seeing". Loudness goes down, distortion way up.
Teddy G gave you some very hip advice. He is very familiar with sound cards and the like. I have had to take a very different tact.
I do VO's, but also do live recording, and so my partner and I have had to invest in dedicated recording gear (Tascam 24-tracks,
etc.), because PC-based audio gear is really NOT reliable enough
for that.We only use the PC for Sonic Solutions to clean up the
tracks. And a lot of our clientele expect to see a big console.
My one concern is that a lot of folks don't put a lot of $$ or research
into their monitors.Phones are a necessary evil for VO tracking, but I would stay away from them for mixing. Invest in a pair of small monitors, like Tannoys or Haflers, and that will keep you safe.PEACE

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:21 pm

Moonbaby, thanks...I guess you're the Yamaha manual guest interpreter tonight.

Tannoys or Haflers, huh?
What's the benefit of those brands?

Brad

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:02 am

Yamaha MP5A's, right... I may or not buy them, but the point(If any) is that in my room(Pretty bad space - but would make a good bedroom --- Oh! That's what it is!), really good speakers would be a waste. Alesis M1's, whatever(For now.).

I have used a Beyer for years in one studio I go to. The condenser I believe? MC34? It makes me sound wonderful! Or is it the room? I don't know? If offered one, I wouldn't turn it down, but would consider that particular model more like the C414... I will look up the 160...

The 376...... I don't know... Here it sits. I'm sure I asked the DBX guy about the 12AX7, and that he said he used one in his own. Using the wrong tube could be harmful to any piece of gear, so... A quick email to DBX would get a response I'm sure... You should(We should.). I have a Mullard tube. I have yet to "re-visit" it... May be a 12AU7A?(The recommended tube for the 376.). I will give the thing a workout(I also have several other tubes from several other makers to try.). No sense doing so before as I couldn't hear any difference(My room, speakers, ears...). Now that I have the new phones, I'll let you know...

Tubes... Mullard, RCA, etc. How do I know how good they are? They're all 30+ years old.... A Cadillac's a nice car, but, a 30 year old Cadillac? Unused(For whatever reason) for 30+ years? Even if the one I have IS wonderful, for how long? How many sessions will I do before I realize that it's been "going bad" without notice? I don't know? I don't trust myself. I try to check things out as best I can, but as soon as I know it's the best I can make it.....? Afte that, when I do a project I am NOT anything like an engineer! I don't even notice the equipment at all. I know I've gone weeks with major computer problems, everytime they occur I just "fix it" as fast as possible and "get on with it", to project completion - and then forget entirely that there was even a problem! Time after time! Worries me. Tubes... worry me...

Sennheiser phones and AKG phones are seen mostly in the studios I go to. I like the "solidity" of the Beyers. Not as "solid" as the old Koss Pro4AA's! But they don't weigh 5 pounds either... I have never had a pair of S's or A's that seemed even tight enough that they would stay on my head? Too lightly built for me... "Plasticky?" They have all sounded OK, though...(Again, when I'm actually DOING something, in another studio especially, I really don't often notice... Just make sure to get a nice "closed" phone if you must work the mic with them...

TG

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:36 am

More crap,

Yes, the DBX has a "plug-in" tube socket(Not the most convenient, but, do-able.). You could leave the cover off the thing and plug and unplug tubes to your hearts content - at least until the rather fragile appearing socket "arrangement" breaks(The whole 376 only cost me 400 bucks, it's alright, really -pretty cool, I'm not complaining, I just try to be gentle.)((And if I pray for anything, it's an Avalon...)).

Tannoys? Haflers? Genelecs? DynAudios? You really have to hear them - IN YOUR SPACE! Nothing more can be said... Try to find a dealer, nearby, that will allow you to do so... Alesis M1's, and others of their 3-500 dollar per pair ilk? Buy a pair, listen to them, throw them away if you don't like them. Sell them in the "Bargain Shopper" for more than you paid for them. Whatever. Scares me to death but, I've never had a complaint doing my work on Yamaha YST MS-50's... $99.00 computer speakers. Very good computer speakers! But... computer speakers... VO folk do no "mixing", they just track, maybe edit out the bad stuff, add an effect or two(The upper side of the bass control on the EQ is the most likely to wear out first, I believe, for most VO guys/gals?) and send it on to a producer, who cares only that it fits the space he has for it. Your good phones will tell you enough about absolute quality(Distortion, hums, etc.). Certainly, get wonderful speakers(And everything else) at your earliest opportunity, but don't feel you have to live on Spaghetti-O's until you save up enough to "finally" get started with great equipment.

Took me two(2) years to finally figure out how to hook-up my Mackie so I could properly utilize it(ThankYOU Rob! And all others who helped...). Read the manual, try things, ask questions. Pray if you must...

Again, YES! That IS the question. With the world's finest computer sound cards, there is NO PLACE TO PLUG-IN THE PHONES!!!!!! No one ever thought of it!!! A headphone amp? There's no place to plug that in either!!! Imaginative solutions aside, a mixer can allow you such a place, as can more specialized devices(Microsoft would call these widgets "workarounds"). When you find something that works, let us know... PLEASE! For now, plug into the Audigy's headphone jack. Just keep in mind that when you replace the SoundBlaster - Which you'd damned well better! This is perfeshinal work here, not computer gaming! Unless you have no work?(Why did I have to bring that up at 2 in the morning???). Then, when you get a real sound card! Well... now you won't have a place to plug in your phones, but....but....? I don't know where to go from here?

Why do 200 dollar headphones come with an 1/8" plug and a 1/4" adapter? Simple, because there's no place to plug them in anyway, what does it matter? HA!

Seriously, anyone who's gotten up the coin for a Grace mic pre might actually be able to come up with the Grace headphone/speaker interface/gadget(I hate to call something that costs well over a grand a "gadget", but..? It shouldn't even be..! Again, quite seriously, if you do buy one of these things, let us know how it works(If you buy the 99 dollar one, let us know about that, too...).

Anyway, a computer, a very good, professional sound card(Or other interface), any damned recording software(I use Wavelab 5. Doesn't matter. Cool Edit 200 worked great.), some software, the Grace pre(Or darned near any pre), the Grace HP/S interface gadget(Or the cheapie), no mixer needed. My Mackie was free, so I use it... And a decent mic, phones and some speakers should do it, equipment-wise, for VO work.

Decent. "Decent?" Some of the highest rated radio stations I ever worked with used embarrassingly cheap crap(I mean - 'tis to blush - then throwup!)((Can you say EV 635A? Or, Sennheiser D1000E(?) "With built-in bass boost switch!" - nobody complained(Well, me...). I think it was HOW we used it that made the difference? By the time the stations had made enough money(Off of us.) to buy all the best stuff, they had also become so corporate, so stuffy, so strangled - so scared to DO anything remotely related to interesting or God forbid - fun - that all the good people had left(OK, they were fired... Well, I was fired... many times...) and the stations went straight down the tubes(Well... the transistors), never to return. Gee..? Sounds like several of the majorly-revered, solid gold "record" - walled, 347 channel/flying fader recording studios lately, doesn't it?

It's YOU, not your STUFF.

Good morning,

TG

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:52 am

I can't help it, I don't know what's wrong with me... it's the drugs... Did you ever take too many Advil? Yeah, the headache goes away, but... sleep? No.

Wanna' hear the C1000E? Lemme' see??? 1977 probably, I was 22 then... I can hear that TM jingle now..... "Mu-zic Ray-di-oh... Double-You-Kay-Be-Oh!

www.teddygvo.com

Page two(Solid Gold to make me feel old).

God, I sucked. But it was fun......

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:34 am

Teddy, you are a trip!!
I restore and "hotrod" old Fender and Supro tube amps from the 60's and am fairly familiar with 12ax7 and 12au7,etc. The 12au7 is not nearly the gain of the 12ax7. But you answered my question about the dbx. I own a bunch of dbx stuff, and still have my 122 NR units for the first "multitrack" I owned ( a Teac A2340SX!!!).Over the years, I am afraid that the corporate crap has taken a certain toll on the product quality.I don't want to deal with cheap tube circuits down the road. I will have my buddy stick to the Drawmer Front End One.
You have a point about the monitors, as far as the room is concerned. I recommended the Haflers because they are CHEAP
(a bargain, at like $250/pr) and accurate. The benefit of something like the Haflers is that they are designed to be reasonably "neutral"
as opposed to "hi-fi" speakers that tend to "hype" the musicality.What you hear on them will translate onto other systems fairly well.
My Beyer is a ribbon mic. Teddy, if you haven't tried a M160 on your
voice, you need to! I have a fairly deep voice, and I do have some sibiliance issues. The 160 handles all of that with finesse.Can you say...SMOOOOOOTH?

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:41 am

Uno Mas!
Anyone looking for a headphone amp should look at the OZ stuff...
They know how to deal with the technical problems of headphones and monitor mixing.They build stuff that is pretty reliable and flexible to use.All at a very good price(probably no more than what these guys are spending on the Yamaha mixers).

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:50 pm

Ok...looking for OZ amps now...

Maybe I should just get rid of my Yamaha MG 10/2 mixer if I got that. *shrug*

Something I noticed in my local store was these Nady active monitors. There's a chunk oout of the case from somebody catching it with a box knife. They told me they'd give them to me for $190. What do you guys think?

Brad

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:55 pm

Nady is far-eastern stuff like "Behwronger". Save your $$$. The Nady name was big many years ago because John Nady developed
the first "affordable" wireless mics/guitar rigs available. He went under, and for several years (20?) nobody heard a word about him.
Then, a couple of years ago, he resurfaced with budget gear made in China.Cheap stuff doesn't last!