Exposing the Myths of Fiberglass

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:22 am

Rod,

The thread in question was from Syn-Aud-Con's listserv. If you're a member, you should have seen the thread. If you're not, visit www.synaudcon.com to look into joining! Smile

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:43 pm

I just read a short article about mineralwool emitting Formaldehyd into the room when not sealed. It's in german so I suppose it makes no sense to post the link.

They also talk about the risk of cancer which we know is bulls...!

But what abou the Formaldehyd?

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:19 am

Dreamer, you can post the link. Es wäre doch sinnvoll!

Lee

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:03 pm

the dreamer wrote:

I just read a short article about mineralwool emitting Formaldehyd into the room when not sealed. It's in german so I suppose it makes no sense to post the link.

They also talk about the risk of cancer which we know is bulls...!

But what abou the Formaldehyd?

Dreamer,

The formaldehyde is used as a binding agent when manufacturing the product. It's generally 1% to 6% of the product by volume.

From a general point of view it isn't a concern - which is why it's reccomended that one wear a dust respirator rather than a gas respirator.

This directly from an MSD Sheet:

Quote:

Material Safety Data Sheet
Material Name: Mineral Wool Insulation
Page 1 of 7 Issue Date: April 18, 2005 Replaces Issue: January 21, 2004
1. Identification:
1.1 Product Generic Name: Mineral Wool Insulation
1.2 Product Use: Commercial, Industrial and Residential Insulation
1.3 Products:
CavityRockÔ, ConRockÔ, CurtainRockÔ, DrainBoardÔ, EnerWrapÔ, FlexibattÒ, Noise Stop, RHFÔ, RHMÔ,
RHTÔ, ROXUL AFBÔ, ROXULPlusÒ, ROXULÒ 1200, RXLÔ, RWÔ, SAFE, Safe’n’SoundÔ, TechtonÔ 1200,
TechtonÔ 1200 Marine, TopRockÔ P, TopRockÔ F, SturdiRockÔ
1.4 Company Address: Roxul Inc.
551 Harrop Drive
Milton, Ontario
Canada

8.3 Personal Protective Equipment::
8.3.1 Respiratory:
8.3.1.1 General:
If dust levels exceed applicable exposure limits, wear a NIOSH certified dust respirator with an efficiency rating of N95 or higher. Use disposable face masks complying with NIOSH respirator standards, such as a 3M Model 8210 (or 8710) (3M Model 9900 in high humidity environments) or equivalent. For exposures up to five times the established exposure limits use a quarter-mask respirator, rated N95 or higher; and for exposures up to ten times the established exposure limits use a half-mask respirator (e.g. MSA’s DM-11, Racal’s Delta N95, 3M’s 8210), rated N95 or higher. For exposures up to 50 times the established exposure limits use a full-face respirator, rated N99 or higher.

As far as concerns regarding formaldehyde - apparently only upon heating conditions (around 390 degrees +)

Quote:

10. Stability and Reactivity:
10.1 Stability: Stable
10.2 Reactivity: Not reactive
10.3 Thermal decomposition products:
Primary combustion products of the cured urea extended phenolic formaldehyde binder, when heated above 390 °F (200 °C), are carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, ammonia, water and trace amounts of formaldehyde.

Other undetermined compounds could be released in trace quantities. Emission usually only occurs during the first heating. The released gases may be irritating to the eyes, nose and throat during initial heat-up. Use appropriate respirators (air supplied) particularly in tightly confined or poorly ventilated areas during initial
heat-up.

here's the link if you want to see it yourself:

http://www.roxul.com/graphics/rx-na/canada_us/products/msds4-18-05.pdf

I hope that helps,

Rod

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:18 pm

Rod, thank you!
In the meantime I had a phonecall with a tech from Isover (big glasswoolmanufacturer). He generally told me the same except thet their products start to gas out at 150°C which is also no Problem.

So I suppose that cheap furniture, artificial carpets and glues are more "outgasing".

Thanks

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:55 am

On the subject of rockwool...

a soundproofing material supplier is recommending using it for insulating inside ventilation systems, including ductwork, to keep sound from reverberating inside. While it's not a carcinogen, I would think it could cause breathing problems in that kind of usage. Any thoughts?

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:35 pm

HockeyMike:

It's not a 'health hazard' due to above.
Fluffy Pink fiberglass and the rigid rockwool that I've got both flake -- so they're an irritant and dusty and need a cover IMO.

For ventilation systems, you should only use materials that are rated for duct work. Linacoustic is an example. It's got enough glue on it to keep the fibers in place even if a gale force wind blows on it.

For the return air duct, you certainly don't have any concerns because the furnace filter will catch anything that falls off.

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:07 pm

HockeyMike wrote:

On the subject of rockwool...

a soundproofing material supplier is recommending using it for insulating inside ventilation systems, including ductwork, to keep sound from reverberating inside. While it's not a carcinogen, I would think it could cause breathing problems in that kind of usage. Any thoughts?

Your Soundproofing supplier is a moron - and should stick to what he knows - which is soundproofing. (He obviously doesn't know squat about HVAC systems).

You want to use duct liner to line duct......... preferably you use a polymer coated duct liner that further reduces the possibility of fiberglass particles blowing free.

That is a black faced duct liner.

You are very correct that it could cause problems - even though it isn't a carcinogen - I would hate to be asthmatic and walk into a space set up like that.

Sincerely,

Rod

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:30 pm

Rod Gervais wrote:

the dreamer wrote:

I just read a short article about mineralwool emitting Formaldehyd into the room when not sealed. It's in german so I suppose it makes no sense to post the link.

They also talk about the risk of cancer which we know is bulls...!

But what abou the Formaldehyd?

Dreamer,

The formaldehyde is used as a binding agent when manufacturing the product. It's generally 1% to 6% of the product by volume.

From a general point of view it isn't a concern - which is why it's reccomended that one wear a dust respirator rather than a gas respirator.

This directly from an MSD Sheet:

Quote:

Material Safety Data Sheet
Material Name: Mineral Wool Insulation
Page 1 of 7 Issue Date: April 18, 2005 Replaces Issue: January 21, 2004
1. Identification:
1.1 Product Generic Name: Mineral Wool Insulation
1.2 Product Use: Commercial, Industrial and Residential Insulation
1.3 Products:
CavityRockÔ, ConRockÔ, CurtainRockÔ, DrainBoardÔ, EnerWrapÔ, FlexibattÒ, Noise Stop, RHFÔ, RHMÔ,
RHTÔ, ROXUL AFBÔ, ROXULPlusÒ, ROXULÒ 1200, RXLÔ, RWÔ, SAFE, Safe’n’SoundÔ, TechtonÔ 1200,
TechtonÔ 1200 Marine, TopRockÔ P, TopRockÔ F, SturdiRockÔ
1.4 Company Address: Roxul Inc.
551 Harrop Drive
Milton, Ontario
Canada

8.3 Personal Protective Equipment::
8.3.1 Respiratory:
8.3.1.1 General:
If dust levels exceed applicable exposure limits, wear a NIOSH certified dust respirator with an efficiency rating of N95 or higher. Use disposable face masks complying with NIOSH respirator standards, such as a 3M Model 8210 (or 8710) (3M Model 9900 in high humidity environments) or equivalent. For exposures up to five times the established exposure limits use a quarter-mask respirator, rated N95 or higher; and for exposures up to ten times the established exposure limits use a half-mask respirator (e.g. MSA’s DM-11, Racal’s Delta N95, 3M’s 8210), rated N95 or higher. For exposures up to 50 times the established exposure limits use a full-face respirator, rated N99 or higher.

As far as concerns regarding formaldehyde - apparently only upon heating conditions (around 390 degrees +)

Quote:

10. Stability and Reactivity:
10.1 Stability: Stable
10.2 Reactivity: Not reactive
10.3 Thermal decomposition products:
Primary combustion products of the cured urea extended phenolic formaldehyde binder, when heated above 390 °F (200 °C), are carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, ammonia, water and trace amounts of formaldehyde.

Other undetermined compounds could be released in trace quantities. Emission usually only occurs during the first heating. The released gases may be irritating to the eyes, nose and throat during initial heat-up. Use appropriate respirators (air supplied) particularly in tightly confined or poorly ventilated areas during initial
heat-up.

here's the link if you want to see it yourself:

http://www.roxul.com/graphics/rx-na/canada_us/products/msds4-18-05.pdf

I hope that helps,

Rod

To add a little to what Rod discusses above:

formaldehyde is bad for you because it reacts with alot of things, and generally when things go reacting with you, that's not good.

But in the form that is present in fiberglass, the vast majority of the formaldehyde is reacted. past-tense.

It is an awesomely useful, and extremely widely used chemical. Probably 10 billion pounds/year of formaldehyde are used in the US alone. It is probably one of the 10 or 20 or 30 most commonly used chemicals in the world. Which means you own alot of it, and i mean alot. Its everywhere, and in everything. Most durable coatings use formaldehyde. The clearcoat on your car is one example. In the form of melamine-formalehyde crosslinkers. Why? It's cheap and basically nothing performs better.

The odor threshold of something is how much concentration of it in the air you or the average person can smell. The odor threshold of formaldehyde is about 1 ppm, one part per million in the air, that's not very much.

OSHA limits workplace exposure over an 8 hour workday to 0.5 ppm formaldehyde, a little less than the odor threshold. and 2ppm for a 15minute exposure. OSHA takes their job pretty seriously, and i have faith in that organization, and you can assume that the above represent safe exposure levels.

So, can you smell formaldehyde coming off your rockwool? probably not.

If the resins containing formaldehyde release formaldehyde when it hits 400 degrees, and you're in the room to breathe it, you have bigger problems than the formaldehyde anyway. And the MSDS Rod quoted said trace amounts of formaldehyde.

the key is this: reacted. these products contain reacted formaldehyde. Once it's reacted, it's not getting in the air, and it's not going to react with you.

This is an intensly litigous society, and nobody wants another asbestos and the billions it cost industry, and as such formaldehyde may get phased out... they may phase it out as a marketing thing - one cmopany might release "formaldehyde free" insulation to gain an advantage, and the rest shortly follow suit, maybe they already have.

You must make up your own mind about safety issues, i can't do that for you, i can only speak for myself. I wouldn't fret about formaldehyde in insulation. I've never smelled any, even if i shove my face near the stuff.

Brian

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:36 pm

some other fun facts:

the foam on your chair cushion and in room treatments contains a member of the chemical family that is responsible for the single most tragic industrial accident in history... In Bhopal, India. So horrendous was that incident, that tens of thousands died, hundreds of thousands were injured, and websites devoted to it abound on the 'net to this day, 20 years later. An isocyanate is that chemical.

but it's reacted. in foam it is, literally, a ZERO concern.

now, the exact chemcial that wreaked so much horror upon Bhopal was found a couple years ago in Marlboros, in it's free form.

yikes

Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:15 am

Has anybody mentioned acoustic cotton as an alternative to fiberglass? See here

http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/wall_insulation/ultratouch.htm?d=28

Based on the picture of some guy and his kids installing it with their bare hands, it looks very wholesome and safe. C.F. fiberglass, where there's a picture of a guy with gloves, glasses, mask, and Tyvek jumpsuit, LOL.

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:14 am

This whole thread is grossly misleading as it only deals with the topic of cancer. (edit note - I see that since posting this, some people have indeed mentioned the problems of glass and slag dust).

Rockwool and glasswool have other dangerous properties when intergrated into buildings. By stating (probably correctly) that rockwool and glasswool do not cause cancer, you are implying that they are perfectly healthy and safe to use. They are not.

In most climates, rockwool and glasswool draw moisture out of the atmosphere and hold the moisture over very long periods. When these materials are used in contact with raw brickwork and especially with older raw brickwork, they serve to keep the bricks and themselves wet thoughout the year.

This not only damages the building, but also leads to dangerous fungal growth in the walls. The spors of these fungi can be cancer causing (not all are, but some are) and can also lead to lung infections.

To imply that these materials are safe is irresponsible.

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:28 am

The Byre wrote:

This whole thread is grossly misleading as it only deals with the topic of cancer. (edit note - I see that since posting this, some people have indeed mentioned the problems of glass and slag dust).

Rockwool and glasswool have other dangerous properties when intergrated into buildings. By stating (probably correctly) that rockwool and glasswool do not cause cancer, you are implying that they are perfectly healthy and safe to use. They are not.

In most climates, rockwool and glasswool draw moisture out of the atmosphere and hold the moisture over very long periods. When these materials are used in contact with raw brickwork and especially with older raw brickwork, they serve to keep the bricks and themselves wet thoughout the year.

This not only damages the building, but also leads to dangerous fungal growth in the walls. The spors of these fungi can be cancer causing (not all are, but some are) and can also lead to lung infections.

To imply that these materials are safe is irresponsible.

Awww, come on now - why do you have to come all the way over here just to make yourself look foolish?

You are correct that bad building practices with these products can cause problems with moisture and mold...........

SO WHAT - bad driving with an automible can cause death as well - that doesn't say anything about the automobile - just about the moron driving it.

SO if you want to build badly - then have your problems - but I have built - and coordinated the building of more than a billion dollars in construction - and have never had a problem with condensation due to whatever insulation what used on a project - just detail the vapor barrier in the proper location and voila - no problems.

There is nothing "irresponsible" about this thread - although there is something "irresponsible" about people who have no knowledge posting as if they do.

Sincerely,

Rod

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:19 am

Ah Rod, we met again!

In this case, you and I are probably singing off the same hymn sheet. There is a good chance that people will read that rockwool does not cause cancer and therefore assume is OK to use anywhere.

That's the problem with all these forums, everything we write can only be a half truth. We have a short space and a short time to write just a few words of advice and by doing so leave out so much other information that should, in an ideal World, be included.

Most home-built studios are built by family fathers into existing old buildings who do not have much knowledge of building materials and building regulations. There is a real danger that they will stick the rockwool straight onto the brickwork and cause huge problems in years to come.

Amateur studios get built into the boarderline rooms of a house like the attic and basement. Rooms that were never intended to be lived in. These are the rooms that were originally designed to protect the rest of the house from dampness, wind and rain and be used (if at all) as storage.

So perhaps we can agree that rockwool does not cause cancer, but please remember all the other common sense rules about using this type of material and others.

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:51 am

Brye,

Well met............ Thumbs Up

If you do a search on this site for mold - you will see over 30 threads (this one now becomes one of them) that address the issue.......

This is a valid concern that we pay attention to here - which is another one of the reasons we ask people to post as much information as we do before answering their questions.........

If you were to look at the thread "exterior wall reconstruction" - you would find that the poster was placing the vapor barrier incorrectly - and we went out of our way to educate him in this regard.

You would find similar posts regarding the design of HVAC system - and the need for humidity control - to maintain healthy mold free buildings.

All of this (of course) along with plenty of fresh air - no sense to building perfectly sealed death chambers disguised as isolation booths.........

We really try very hard here to address the most inportant issues first - which always deal with proper construction techniques.

Sincerely,

Rod

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