Transparent pres. Any suggestions?

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:32 pm

impro wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong but I think that with the RNC layout there might be a 1-2ms latency.

I don't think so
it has been a while since I was inside one but I don't remember anything in the signal path that could do that.

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:47 pm

well that what I wondered about.
If the signal is pure analog and the controls use adda there should be a latency in the chain.
I do not know.And it is not realy important anyways

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:10 pm

Why would the controls use AD/DA? They're simple attenuater switches with various resistors and capacitors in the chain.

Of course, if there were conversion going on between the two realms, yes, there would be latency. But there isn't so there ain't.

Now, I'll go out on a limb and state very simply -

I like the RNC and I like the RNP.

The RNP is a good, usable pre at a good value. Do I find that I like it better than my Graces or my Trues - No. Do I find it to be a viable and all around good preamp? Heck Yes. I don't find that the minor annoyances of the wall wart (an inconvenience only - when really digging into the way voltage works, there really is no significant difference of a wall-wart vs. an internal power supply - if implemented correctly.)

I don't mind the SMT. Most companies are going surface mount nowadays. I don't see this as a problem as it's becoming far less common that audio engineers are electrical engineers too. And, given the price point, it's not a problem to replace an entire board in a device like this.

As for the RNC - I find this to be an excellent compressor. So it isn't balanced - what truly does this mean to me? I use compressors as inserts. Most of my gear uses unbalanced inserts anyway as do most modern consoles. If I want to use a device for an entire bus (ie, mastering compressor) I usually whip out the big guns. This device is not designed to be a mastering compressor.

What I like about it - the sound; it's crystal clear and the compression is clean. The controls; they're logical and they're all there. None of this "compression knob" crap where you don't get to select ratio, threshold and the such.

What I don't like about it - no dual mono. Big deal - if I want independent channels, I'll buy another unit - they're that cheap.

I'm really looking forward to my demo unit on the new RNLA, though I should say that I'm approaching it with a lot of hesitation. I will intentionally be looking for things not to like simply because I don't want to come across as the guy who likes all things FMR. However, if I like it, I'll tell you I do and I'll tell you why.

As for the Sytek - it's a great pre. It too uses surface mount technology and (I believe) a switching power supply so many people who are driven by specs won't like this pre. As well, it uses ICs, so again, spec watchers or parts counters beware. However, the Sytek stuff, make no mistake about it, are great pres. They sound great, they're made well and the company is good to deal with.

My advice - buy one with the Burr Brown options on channels 3&4. You won't regret it!

J.

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:28 am

Bas I have one and use it all the time it's one of my goto pre's ( ovrhds , acoustic etc. )

I'll just say you can't go wrong with a Sytek , hell if you read whats out there about it you;ll see that it is a very good pre for the money .

$200 pre ch.

Later
Buzz

PS: Or just listen to all the bull S$it and by something for 3x's that amount and get ripped . Actually the Sytek is descrete component on a PCB ( no SMT's that I remember ,but that was a year ago when I lokked in it so ?? ) Just call Mike at Sytek he will answer all of your ?'s

(847) 550-0100

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:45 am

I don't own a sytek but have tracked with the 4 channel version that has the Burr Brown opamp's on the second 2 channels and I was very impressed, especially with the Burr Brown opamps. They have a little color to them.

I noticed the sytek was expecially useful on drums.

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:21 pm

i hate posting beacause i consider myself a newbie , but i find what kurt says is straight up and makes sense. I listen to all sorts of people and went out and got a rode nt1000 and an eureka pre for hip-hop male vocals, and it sounded harsh really harsh. so i took a chance and got a kel mic. and the brick
its sounds way better, alot smoother. even the rode sounds better just used it on a girl singing a hook on a song. so the man could have saved me about 800 dollars if i would have read his posts before purchase. as for all you high end dealers doing us the favor of saving us money i'm not buying it (you're no better than car dealers) no one sels stuff to make less money. oh IMO

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:17 pm

Arbona ????

1st I am not a sales person

2nd If you buy everthing based on other opinions you have no ears , and deserve to waste money.

3rd Hip Hop is DISCO !!!

There are many people that will steer you towards THIER gear on the web , then there are others that have used the gear and are biased then there are others that have used the gear and have very bad ears or hate the MFG

Then there are those that have used the gear have good ears and are independant.

So you choose who you will listen to and who will give you an ohnest opinion.

Just my 0.02$

Later
Buzz

PS: you will need different mic/pre combos for different singers regardless of genre to get the best from those different voices !!!!

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:37 pm

arbona wrote:

so i took a chance and got a kel mic. and the brick
its sounds way better, alot smoother.

Good choice. The Kel is good and I love The Brick.

A lot of the audio gear business is mainly about features and not how well a piece of gear actually does what it is supposed to do. Too bad most reviewers in the audio rag biz are playing the same game.

That said, I am not completely comfortable with The Brick being called transparent. I don´t think it is. That is however not a problem. I love that product anyway. However, in order to get back to the initial post that started this thread.. recommending The Brick as a truly transparent pre might not be good advice. I know a lot of people might disagree, but so what.
Anyways, why does he want a transparent pre? The way I see this, unless he has some extremely well founded reasons for really looking for a truly incredibly transparent pre then The Brick might be just what the doctor ordered.

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:45 pm

.. and the Sytek is very decent. The first Sytek you buy must be the with Burr Brown on the 3 & 4.

Cool

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:32 pm

Sorry it took a couple days to respond. I've been covered up lately with all kinds of you name it.

Kurt Foster wrote:

RNP vs. Mackie
What I said was ... "More like a Mackie than not." Please if you want to quote me, quote me ... don't make things up. .

What in the world does "More like a Mackie than not" mean if it doesn't mean "like a Mackie"? I mean, really...

Kurt Foster wrote:

Personal Issues
As far as the personal issues, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I do not know Mr. McQuilken other than through a few exchanges.

Kurt, I honestly believe you took it personally that he wouldn't send you a RNP for review. Doing a search I found you mentioned it *several* times and I believe it truly bothered you. Aside from the fact that FMR Audio was severely backordered, you had already said it couldn't be as good as people were saying, so why would FMR send you a unit for you to review? You made your mind up before ever getting one in your hands. That was a bit strange, no?

Kurt Foster wrote:

I just really don't like cheap pre amps (especially ones that run on 8 volts).

You mean 12 volts? Ummm... That's never been a problem. Does electricity work differently where you're from? Smile

Seriously, if there's no tubes or fat transformers to power, why does one need more?

Kurt Foster wrote:

It's interesting that this is your first post. Thanks for you candid comments regarding your occupation .... Perhaps you can educate us all as to how you make a lot more money selling dozens of cheap pres like the RNP over one piece of high quality gear like a Millennia or a Vintech. Then everyone else will have a grasp on why it's always gear manufacturers, dealers, reps and distributors who have issues with my remarks. They hate it when they see posts like:

"I think it's good to know about people who have had a bad experience with this gear because 99% of the time we read great reviews (online)about anything, and it seems we live in a perfect world. So it's good to have a real critique from another common mortal like me who actually tried the equipment."

It's interesting that this is your first post

This is indeed my first post on recording.org, but *FAR* from my first post anywhere. I've been in forums since rec.audio.pro first started, and that's been quite a while. Smile

As far as what brought me here... I was eager to see what people were saying about the new FMR RNLA. Seems like lots of other interesting stuff too. It's hard to keep up with all of them (forums) since there's so many now.

Perhaps you can educate us all as to how you make a lot more money selling dozens of cheap pres like the RNP over one piece of high quality gear like a Millennia or a Vintech

Well, for starters, you have a much larger percentage of people looking for lower priced gear that performs great over people looking for $2k+ gear. Dollar for dollar, I make just about exactly the same amount of money selling pres like the Great River MP-2NV ($2150) than I do when I sell 4.526 RNP's ($2150), so that's simply not an issue at all.

Then everyone else will have a grasp on why it's always gear manufacturers, dealers, reps and distributors who have issues with my remarks

Man, I just wish you weren't so darn pessimistic about dealers and manufacturers. Most of us dealers are just regular guys/gals who passionately love audio and simply chose to follow our dream when the opportunity presented itself. Many of us were very active in the various forums before going into the retail business. By chance, do you play golf? How would you like to be a professional golfer. ?? uhhh.. ?? I don't know why I typed that, 'cause running a music store is nowhere near that cool, but you know what I mean.

As for manufacturers, I think it's one thing when President and CEO of Pro-Audio Gear, Inc rears his ugly corporate head to blab on and on about his new toob whatnot, but it's another thing completly when you get someone like Mark McQuilken, Dan Kennedy, and others like them who actually design and build gear to come in here and fill our eyes with vauable information. These guys aren't coming in here to sell units. Heck, they're always backed up. Always. They're just passionate about audio like you and me, and they love what they do.

These people you are referring to have issues with your remarks for what I feel are obvious reasons. I don't care to go into them, as they have been brought up before.

Disclaimer: I don't play golf, but it sure looks relaxing. Smile

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:57 pm

Kurt Foster wrote:

I never head from you after the review ran . I thought you were so happy with the review that you decided to let me keep it.

I really hope you are kidding about thinking Dan was going to let you keep it. Reviewers don't get paid by a manufacturer (but are paid by the associated magazine obviously, which there is nothing wrong with if you agree with the basic philosophy of capitalism in the western world). Mix Magazine is the largest mag in circulation, and even their reviewers don't get paid. That's part of the trust issue involved, that the reviewer isn't going to be 'bribed'. IMO most reviewers are very professional and they do their best to be done with the piece in 4-6 weeks.

Kurt Foster wrote:

I would be happy to return it. Please send the pick up tag to the same address that the unit was sent to. Let me know when I can expect to see it. I will have it boxed and ready to go.

You get to keep a $2,150 preamp for one year, and you expect Dan Kennedy to pay for the shipping back to you? No offense, but that's the epitomy of cheap (and he had to bring it up in a public forum, shame on you). You should pay for it overnight shipping back to Dan (you should have actually bought it, that's the industry standard if the reviewer wants to keep it longer than 2 months). That's the courteous thing to do, just from one person to another. It would cost close to $9000 to rent a 2NV for a year from any normal rental house (2% of total street cost, 4 day week x 52 weeks). You seem to fail to realize that Great River is a small operation, and handing out 5 figure's ($$$) worth of units to various reviewers for free is not part of the plan (of any boutique manufacturer). I'm definitely seeing a trend in the industry of people who are claiming to be 'professional reviewers' who are really just regurgitating product literature, heresay, or forum banter (I've been plagerized before), and are really in it for the potential of kickbacks. Pathetic.

You are very quick to point the finger at dealers and manufacturers for making a living. Yet you would completely welcome and enjoy a parasitic relationship with a manufacturer if you could get it for free? This sounds like a serious double standard Kurt. You know who ultimately would PAY for the privilage of something like this if this was the reality of the industry? The end user. I'm glad it doesn't happen, because everything would be 20% more expensive than it is.

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:57 am

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:10 am

Nathan,
I hope that people see through all this.

First, not that it's any of your (or anyone else's) business, the review agreement sent to Dan, stated that the manufacturer was to pay the shipping both ways. This is very common. I was finished with the unit within several weeks (the agreement asks for 14 weeks up front) and I notified Dan when the article was to run. In fact he was allowed to proof it for inaccuracies prior to publication. I received a very nice E Mail from Dan where he said "That's a very nice review". He never asked for the unit back and I have been right here where I can be contacted by E Mail PM or on the BB, everyday wondering if he ever would. In his last Email to me Dan said

Dan Kennedy wrote:

"I did pretty much forget about it, so it's my fault as well"

I did not expect to be allowed to keep the unit for no charge but when the pick up tags do not come or the manufacturer doesn't ask for the piece back ... ???

BTW, you failed to mention that reviewers are usually offered an accommodation price on the review units. This is usually near dealer cost and allows the manufacturer to avoid the expense of having what is essentially, a used unit, returned. It's a win win for all parties involved. When Dan asked for the unit back the other day, he did at that point offer me an accommodation price.

Dan did not need to say anything in public (as you asserted), although it doesn't bother me one bit that he did as I have nothing to hide. All he had to do was send the pick up tags or write me an E mail; requesting the return of the unit (and you know that). He sent me an email at the same time he posted .... and I replied immediately. The unit is boxed up and ready to go. No problem.

You are wrong about Mix. The writers are paid .... I know this for a fact. I am not sure but I think the review units are purchased by the Mix editors. I know that review units are supplied to the writers by the magazine. JoeH could confirm these things as he is a writer for Mix. I have to arrange for units myself with the manufacturers. Not the ideal situation I agree but I have no alternatives. If you would like to supply me review units to insure complete integrity I would be happy to abide by that. I do not get paid in any way by RO for my articles either so having to pay for return shipping would be out of pocket for me. I'm not going to do that.

If you can find anything in my articles that is plagiarized, please bring it to my attention. I can assure you I write all the content myself unless indicated by quotes.

I hope that clears up any misunderstandings your post may have created.

Humbucker Jake.
First, transformers are passive devices. Even the RNP could implement them although that would be contrary to the "transparent" approach they say they are implementing. "Transparent" pres like the RNP / Mackie are the least expensive to build which is why all the "affordable" pres claim to be of the "transparent" type. Transformers and components that add color or sonic signature are usually expensive.

The RNP manual states it will run on any transformer that provides at least 8 volts and at any polarity. What I refer to as "real mic pres", use a lot more volts than that usually, at least 24 and 14 volt rails and some of the better units use even more than that. Up to now it has been accepted by most the high end manufacturers that high voltages are required for full bandwidth (bass extention as well as an effortless high end) and headroom. This may be changing with designs coming out from manufacturers like Neve that are employing wall warts but as far as I am concerned the jury is still out on that one. I am not sure whether the standard of quality is being lowered due to mp3's and delivery systems like IP0Ds that don't reveal the sonic subtleties or that the technology is getting better. I fear the first and am ambivalent to the second until it's proven.
.

My listing session with the RNP did not impress me .... but I can honestly say I wish it did. If it had, I would have another "affordable" pre I could recommend that is more transparent than "The Brick" which I should have mentioned (as you point out) is not completely transparent (although it's not that bad). But I would rather recommend a less transparent pre that offers full headroom, bandwidth and some dimension as opposed to recommending something that is a "close but no cigar" kind of thing that offers no dimension, because it's the best thing the "low end" has to offer.

If someone wants a really decent transparent mic pre, the Grace 201 is the least expensive one that I know of I would be comfortable recommending.

All things said, all things considered, I think my track record speaks for itself. No one has ever come to me and said "That mic or that pre (or whatever) you recommended is a POS".

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:23 pm

Wow Kurt, you are certainly typing through a minefield in this topic!

I loves my ISA428 - to my (limited) ear, it's quite transparent, the price is right (lower end of your range), has some nice features, and has been very reliable. I know it's not the bees knees pre, but I plan to buy one of Dan's GR pres as well to supplement. Odd no-one has mentioned the 428 (not that I read anyway).

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:47 pm

Ok. This appears to have run way off course. Say goodbye...

This topic sponsored by: