Monitors Underneath the Stage

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:52 am

I can understand some of the people being resistant to IEM's. I had a hard time getting used to them. I loved the idea, and really wanted to use them instead of wedges, but it took me a while to get used to the way they sounded and all that. Very akward at first. If I hadn't understood all the benefits and whatnot, I may not have given them long enough to get used to them.

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:07 am

Musicians who have done a lot of studio work seem to take to them quicker than musicians who only play live.

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:28 am

Calgary wrote:

Musicians who have done a lot of studio work seem to take to them quicker than musicians who only play live.

Studio work == more experience with headphones

So it looks like when we recarpet the auditorium I'll get to drop the monitors under the stage.

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:50 pm

Calgary wrote:

To what do you attribute the resistance Brian?

It alienates the players. Also, on the low end, sound quality is a big issue. After a while you will have to break into ambient mic'ing, limiters for protection, etc. Depending on what system you are using, you can have up to 8 ms of delay from A/D and D/A latency. That is an issue.

IEMs should not be done unless they can be done correctly. They should also be implemented only after all possible players have consulted an audiologist/physician, had their hearing tested, and custom molds made. Then the players should be educated in hearnig health, proper bud cleaning, ear cleaning, etc.

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:11 pm

Brian:
Sheet (and this pains me to no end because he has flamed me more than once before!) is 110% correct in his assessment of HotSpots (which,BTW, is a trademarked brand of very specific "little-shit" speakers for lounge lizards and the likes), and the CRAZY idea that you ""fly" them overhead!! Whoever recommended you do THAT ( Thumbs Up

did NOT take into account that a typical vocal mic is aimed UPWARD approx 45 degrees, putting the "null" spot of the mic 180 degrees opposite that! This means that an overhead speaker (of any size) firing down on the mic (OK, the performers' head) at the mic's "hotspot", NOT at the NULL point(which is aimed more towards the floor)!!! This is simple geometry, not brain surgery( Thumbs Up

. I have seen venues such as coffee houses mount monitors up in the ceiling, but in EVERY case, they sounded like crap. The whole system, not just the monitors. When was the last time you saw ANY professional soundstage use monitors that way?
Very few productions WANT wedges on the floor (for sightline reasons, usually).But that is how they work best, and they concede that issue every time..
As far as putting them into/under the stage, I have worked many productions that did exactly that. BUT you better be prepared to structurally reinforce the stage where you've cut the openings for them or else there is a very real liability issue if the stage gives way and that 250-pound tenor drops like a sack of concrete. A professional touring stage is made of steel, and those "monitor holes" are actually steel grating to accomodate that: one wrong step and....! I'm surprised that nobody pointed that out, especially given the small size of the stage where that will be a lot more likely...
IEMs can be a nightmare! Our church tried them (2500-seat auditorium, big-assed soundstage), but we didn't do the thorough prepping that Sheet made clear would be required. Number one, we didn't get the performers tested and fitted as he suggested, and didn't invest in the suggestion (by many others) that we get an Aphex Dominator for each mix. Instead, I was given a PreSonus ACP88, which was lying around (not the same animal), and the results were...And because our sound system management is in the hands of a BASS player and a DRUMMER (!), all they did was bitch that the IEMs had "no bass". I even put a couple of butt-shakers under the bass player and the drummer's throne...not enough.Their attitude was,"We have this $80K+ Midas board, and we still can't hear the bass enough!" Go figure. It was back to the Nexos (which I like).
Anyway, Brian, I have a pair of these cheesey, gold-metal-flake-naugahyde Kustom 6x8" columns from the 60's. You can place them carefully at each corner of the stage, aim them at the performers, and...!
PEACE.

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:15 pm

Sorry that I left you with the "flame" impression. Not a very Christian thing to do on my part.

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:50 pm

Sheet:
No problem. I'm sure that I deserved the...corrections...that you provided me! I seem to remember that I didn't show you the respect that I should have a time or two. I know that this is off-subject (I am not signed up to receive PMs on this site for personal matters), but did you ever know Stan Miller (Stanal Sound) in Oklahoma City? Just curious...he was a mentor to me in the 70's.

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:28 am

moonbaby wrote:

Sheet:
No problem. I'm sure that I deserved the...corrections...that you provided me! I seem to remember that I didn't show you the respect that I should have a time or two. I know that this is off-subject (I am not signed up to receive PMs on this site for personal matters), but did you ever know Stan Miller (Stanal Sound) in Oklahoma City? Just curious...he was a mentor to me in the 70's.

Is he related to Danny Miller? Danny has a sizable rental company.

Most of the major locals that were in OKC in the 70s are gone, except for Jim Ford, Larry Bensen, etc.

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:08 pm

I don't know. Danny may be his son. Stan wrote the book-literally- for Yamaha when they introduced the PM-1000 into this country in 76. Stanal Sound was the SR provider for Elvis and Neil Diamond in Vegas and Stan was their FOH mixer. He had a couple of rehearsal facilities in airport hangars in Oklahoma City,too. Quite a character, always had loads of stories to tell about his clients and the cars they gave him. Took Elvis' passing pretty hard. Anyway, he introduced me to a whole new world, God bless him. Happy holidays...

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:13 am

Man, I LOVED JD Sumner and the Stamps. I never got to see JD and Elvis live together. I do have all of the video footage that can be had (I think). Elvis always showcased JD and the boys. JD could hit a double low-C. I wondered through the years how in God's name Stan (or whoever was mixing) could have reproduced that with the PA technology they had at the time.

I know that JD learned alot about PA from the Blackwood Brothers and Elvis days. Maybe Stan was the man.

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:32 pm

Stanley Screamers, man! One of the earliest "flyable" cabs. Twin 15"Altec co-axials in a big bass reflex box. Stan designed them to be as "studio-like" as possible for live rigs. Very similar in concept as the UREI 'Big Red'. Unreal bass, and the mids didn't honk. That alone, was a feat in itself. And he could watch the stage and react intuitively to the performance faster than anyone else. A real master of his craft.

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