Feedback

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:23 am

Hey fellas im new here.

Quick ?

I was wondering if there is anything out on the market that does an outstanding job of eliminating feeback when it creeps up during a performance?

I started at a place whitch does live plays and seems to me they have there speakers postion wrong which causes alot of feedback. Is there something on the market that will sqush the feedback when it slow creeps in. I mean i have a 150 piece orchestra miced and 200 piece choir and cant be looking the board every second of the day looking to see where the feedback is coming from.

Now i have found this unit called Peavey Q231FX which seems to show up where the feedback is coming from in the eg range. But im looking for something that will do it by its self. I know ive experimented with compressors but doesnt really sound good after that.

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:27 pm

Sabine makes a line of really good feedback eliminators. Probably the best on the market. Better than the dbx and Peavey's stuff. Google Sabine Audio and check them out. And by the way...compressors don't help control feedback, they can, indeed induce it!

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:07 pm

thanx man ill check into that.

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:43 pm

Speaker and Mic positioning first

then head for the tricky feedback boxes as a last resort
I find they do have a latency that not everyone can deal with

experience is your best freind
just keep learning and it will make sense
ask many questions of experience live sound operators

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:55 pm

Not to sound bragadocious or anything but most ppl come to me when they want to learn sound. I was just asking if anyone knew of any equipement that could handle my needs. Considering how ive been doing sound for 15 years it would seem to me that i know what im doing just a hunch. Ive alot of ppl banging down my door to do sound for them. But your right in a way im always learning and can use everything i can take in since this is my livelyhood!

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:41 pm

yep
but we can't all have been in every situation there has ever been and a new room and new situation can cause even the most experienced operator some grief

we can all find our selves in a "d'oh" moment

my experience with strings is good in the recorded environment but as experienced as I am in live ... massed strings is not something I've had good experience with ... and the few I've done have been headphones and ear pieces through a Aviom distribution
so feedback wasn't a problem

The very reverberant locations like churches and halls can be difficult and sometimes the Feedback units like the Sabine can solve the situation ... even the cheap B unit is a possible

I think hiring one first and check to see if it is a genuine solution would be a first step

A complex speaker arrangement with delay stacks can be very difficult to identify the trigger for the feedback
and units with a good spectrum display can be an aid

Graphic equalizers like the Peavey Q231FX are a tool but some people prefer to sweep using parametric and other sweep-able filters

I only suggested talking to other experienced operators and specifically those that do the massed strings and massed choirs on a regular basis
... to pick up some of their personal tricks that might be a little left of centre and no on your first choice list of solutions and techniques

Compressors are not something I would use here, as I feel they would aggravate the situation.

BUT

for something that is hands free and a set and forget unit the above suggestion of the Sabine may be one of very few choices out there.

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:29 pm

Good call, Kev.
I did not go through all the parameters that are linked to feedback because I feel like a "scratched record" at times on this forum. I do find it hard to believe that someone with "15 years experience" should suggest that compressors "might" help in the control of feedback(or use "Peavey" in a sentence!) but in my 30+ years of doing live and recorded sound, I've heard it all. Too many people in this business still think that you can just hit a button or two on some sort of black box and the problem will vanish!

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:41 pm

thanks moonbaby

I really wasn't trying to be smart

I do think that when OLD FART live sound guys get together to share ideas and experiences it can be a super time to chalk up some extra tricks of the trade

I have a secret for you
shhh
I have been known to use a Peavey GateKeeper long ago when I was desperate for gear and cash strapped.

Rolling Eyes

even today when the budget calls for it ... I'll use a little of the B gear
one of my favourites is the single rack unit stereo line mixer with effect send.
Handy unit for expanding a system that just doesn't have enough inputs and for creating an extra aux send.

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:52 pm

all i was saying is that i teach sound. I was simply asking about feedback control because the current situation calls for it. Thanks for your guys help who really helped out.

I checked out the sabine and it seemed pretty sweet gear thanks again!

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:53 am

Kev-
Is that the 5-channel gate that Hartley made in the 80s-90s? I remember that Lynyrd Skynyrd used a pair of those things on the drums. Probably because they were free... and actually worked!
BTW...I have a 'B' product, too...some DSP FX thingy that has a vocoder
algorithm that isn't too shabby. At least they steal from the better designs out there!

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:01 pm

yep
a late 80's unit
but mine wasn't free ... cheap but not free
Cool

Daniel, I teach as well, not through an institution and just small shop driven seminars and short training sessions.
Also short courses here at my work for the younger Broadcast Techs and production Operators and Support staff... one of the pleasures of being the Supervising Tech here.

I found one of the difficult situations when using the feedback control devices was when you have multiple sends EQ/Amp/Speaker zones and so there is the obvious choice to use a unit on each send and EQ/Amp/Speaker.
However the auto tune modes can conflict with each other. My suggestion is to set each up up manually and inch by inch as you go around the room.
The DSP units can be latent and this is also some thing that needs to be dealt with.

I've not had the pleasure of using the Sabine unit and from the guys that do this more regularly than I,
they do say this is the unit that others are judged by.

I'd love to know how it all turns out and know which unit you end up with.

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:10 pm

I have a Sabine Graphi-Q rig that I use at various events in my area. I have the single-channel controller and then run that out to a couple of "slave modules". I do this to corelate to different zones, as you described. Each "slave" has 2 ouputs-1 is time-delayed by user-defined settings, the other is "straight" (no delay). This permits far more flexibilty in the applications of this system. I have experienced very little latency with this rig, compared to the %$%^% frustrations I had with the dbx. And by the time the little LED on the Peavey ignites over the associated band, you've smoked a driver (or more!). BTW, that "FLS" concept of theirs was utilized by Sunn.......in the 70's!!!

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:10 pm

Daniel31nicolosi wrote:

Hey fellas im new here.

Quick ?

I was wondering if there is anything out on the market that does an outstanding job of eliminating feeback when it creeps up during a performance?

I started at a place whitch does live plays and seems to me they have there speakers postion wrong which causes alot of feedback. Is there something on the market that will sqush the feedback when it slow creeps in. I mean i have a 150 piece orchestra miced and 200 piece choir and cant be looking the board every second of the day looking to see where the feedback is coming from.

Now i have found this unit called Peavey Q231FX which seems to show up where the feedback is coming from in the eg range. But im looking for something that will do it by its self. I know ive experimented with compressors but doesnt really sound good after that.

Peavey Feedback Ferret is far better than anything else out there. They are out of productions so you will find a great deal on one used. Other than that, a good ear and proper notch of the EQ is best.

I would be carefull of chasing feedback like that. Why don't you rent an analyzer, and insert it into your cue system. When you hear the feedback, isolate it and then cue it into the analyzer. Find the frequency (it won't be exact because there are more freqs than an analyzer represents, but it gives you a ballpark, then fix that channel's mic, placement, EQ, etc.

Are you using high pass filters on everything? Are you using condensers on stage? If so, what kind and why? Use something with good control, like a Shure Beta98, etc. They sound like doo doo on some things but useable on most.

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:37 pm

this thread has prompted me to have a look at some of the more recent gear available.

I've just had the chance to look at the Shure system.
We currently have one in the studio of a "Dancing with the Stars" show.
A laptop is being used as a controller and programmer .. it obviously also presents more info about what is going on than just the front panels.

it is quite easy to use and we are doing a combination of manual and auto operation.

one slightly different technique we are using is to have one on the group send to the speaker systems
which is probably typical
AND one also on specific sub vocal groups to give added protection to the omni directional judge clip ons. These are gained quite a bit by comparison to other sources ... the string section gets it's own unit

the end result is that the main mix doesn't get as twisted as it might with just one unit on the whole system.

all mics do go to the main control room un-changed for the TV mix

hope that makes some sense
is anyone still interested in this stuff ?

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:13 am

The Shure system is very good. I used to work for the owner of Sabine, when he had a music store in northern Florida many years ago. We crossed paths a couple of years ago in a restaurant and he was all jazzed because his company and Shure were working together on wireless and feedback control technologies. Knowing Shure's propensity to out-source a good bit of the technology that they market (i.e., Countryman), I wouldn't be surprised if that system was a Sabine.
The Sabine Graphi-Q system allows just what Kev outlined: a laptop-controlled modular system with totally seperate processing (including time delay) for each "zone". Using the laptop also permits access to other processing facilities that the "hardware" controller box does not, such as parametric EQ, and finer time delay control...
Kev, are you working on the set of the American version of "Dancing With the Stars"? How about that Traci with the 47" legs?

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