Yet another question about Compression.

Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:59 pm

Holy Crap Shotgun!

You just moved up a notch in my book. You answered a question with a DAMN fine explenation which had me laughing out loud.

I know - I'm still a mook in your book.

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:11 am

Some reviews for "Recording the Shotgun Way"........

Cucco wrote:

Holy Crap Shotgun!

You just moved up a notch in my book. You answered a question with a DAMN fine explenation which had me laughing out loud.

I know - I'm still a mook in your book.

CoyoteTrax wrote:

You really have no experience in the field of recording at all, do you Mr. A$$Hat?

None, whatsoever. Can't you go play in a sandbox somewhere?

stickers wrote:

Shotgun is a thread troll.

Your friend always and forever,

Stickers

ErikFlipside wrote:

stickers wrote:

Shotgun is a thread troll.

Your friend always and forever,

Stickers

You mean asshole, right?

I think you meant asshole.

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:12 pm

Jeeeeez.... shotgun this is a classic. Very Happy

, truly superb and funny Laughing

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:35 pm

I still cant believe how you have managed to write a hole year of what i learnt at school in one forum posts...

But its fearly long thow! My eyes are sore!.

Made me laugh to Razz

Just to bad my english is less complete than swiss cheese.

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:38 pm

DAMMMMM..... thats a master class, ony thing that I knew until know about compression was about the squishy part, now I understand it much better,,... I would have love to have a mom that did my laundry, , that would have help me ....

Thanks a lot Mr. Shotgun, Smile

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:52 pm

A great ramble Shottie.

Kudos.

SM.

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:02 am

Slipperman wrote:

A great ramble Shottie.

Kudos.

SM.

I'm seriously humbled. Good to hear from ya Slip.

~S

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:20 pm

new to this site - i have a question about compression and wasn't sure if i should put it here or somewhere else.

You can use compression to control overall level or to shape a sound. i.e - you can use compression to make all sounds more even, or you can use compression to lower the attack of a sound etc. my question is can you do both?

if i have a sound source that has a quick attack (e.g. - snare), and i want to even up the dynamic level of the track i can perhaps apply compression to it at 10:1 and it'll be level but then the attack of the sound is gone, so then you can adjust the attack to allow the attack of the sound to come through, but then the track isn't going to be level anymore cos the attack is the loudest bit of the sound and will vary dramatically from hit to hit. so how do you retain the attack but even up the level?

does this make sense? am i missing a vital part of understanding compression?

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:43 am

danna wrote:

new to this site - i have a question about compression and wasn't sure if i should put it here or somewhere else.

You can use compression to control overall level or to shape a sound. i.e - you can use compression to make all sounds more even, or you can use compression to lower the attack of a sound etc. my question is can you do both?

if i have a sound source that has a quick attack (e.g. - snare), and i want to even up the dynamic level of the track i can perhaps apply compression to it at 10:1 and it'll be level but then the attack of the sound is gone, so then you can adjust the attack to allow the attack of the sound to come through, but then the track isn't going to be level anymore cos the attack is the loudest bit of the sound and will vary dramatically from hit to hit. so how do you retain the attack but even up the level?

does this make sense? am i missing a vital part of understanding compression?

Well, I'd say that to begin with, if you've got a snare track that has a 10-to-1 difference in hits across the track then your problem originates with your drummer, unless he did it on purpose. Is this a jazz track? Best way to solve a drummer problem is whack 'im in the head with his own cowbell and tell him to play like a man.

However, if this track exists and the only thing you can do is march forward and be a trooper, then compression may or may not be your ideal tool. Try it, but it might not be the whole fix, or it might not even be any of the fix.

First, like I said, listen to the whole cut and see if the snare dynamics have a place or not. It may be that in the context of the whole song those dynamics make sense. Or, they may not.

Wherever you find a ratio you like (and you may want to try a lesser one than you mentioned to see if you can get acceptable results), you're going to have to make love to that attack knob to get it right. Remember that if you're using a compressor plugin on a DAW that you have to set it and wait a second or three before you hear the change sometimes. Don't get too antsy. Also maybe raise your threshold a bit so that it only grabs the very top of the peak. Then use your makeup gain to even up everything.

Then again, like I said before, maybe a compressor isn't your best tool. Driving screws can be DONE with a hammer, but it's easier with a screwdriver.

Maybe try some automated (or even manual) fader moves to get the snare hits more even in volume. Also, using some EQ can actually have some effect here too. Say you've used some fader moves to even things up fairly well, but you've still got a couple hits that stick out, yet when you pull their volume down they don't sound right. Try kicking some EQ on those hits, like maybe notch out something around the 3kHz neighborhood. Just those hits though. That means automation again if you're in a DAW. Or just quick fingers if you're not and don't have console automation.

If you do end up back at the compressor, keep in mind that plenty of compressors have a setting for automatic attack and release times (plugins too). Try kicking that on and see if it helps. Maybe also try a different compressor altogether, they all sound different.

Lemme know what you come up with.

~S

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:49 am

I have a solution to your volume differences. Or at least it worked for me.

I was mixing a kids choir and I'm being nice if I say there were MAJOR issues regarding timing, and wild variations in volumes of the various bass/drum hits.

But all was not lost, you see, my instrument is guitar and...well...to be blunt, I suck at it. But the benifit to that is that I have become a bit of a wiz at editing. It's not something I'm proud of, but one does what one can with the cards one has been dealt.

Anyway, this saved the tracks for me

-select the track
-go to "detect silence." Or at least that's what it's called in Cubase. This slices the track up into individual bits
-while they're all selected, 'Normalize." Each hit is now normalized to the exact same level, instead of them all just being brought up by the same amount.

Ta Daa, 900 snare shots, EXACTLY the same volume. Now they may sound a tad different, because they were hit differently, but it's a hell of a lot better than it was. Now you can compress in predictable way and not have to worry about automating the track level anyway. One less thing to worrrly about.

Once they're sliced, you can quantise them too, but it's really tricky to make it so you can't tell in the end, with drums anyway. Getting a real drummer is ultimately the way to go.

Thanks for the great info on compression.

At the risk of feeling the wrath, I'm going to ask what my be a dumb question.

I now understand there are no presets. I say that every morning as I sit on the floor with my legs contorted behind my neck: "ooooommmmm...theeeeere aaaaare noooooooo preeeeeesets"

My question is this: Is there an ORDER, in which one goes through the knobs, a twisin' and a tweakin'? As in, "always start with threshold," or "Make sure you always set the release last," or something like that? Or maybe not.

Thanks
Keith

P.S. Shotgun lives with his mom? Yeeesh, I'm a little creeped out now...

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:44 pm

took-the-red-pill wrote:

-select the track
-go to "detect silence." Or at least that's what it's called in Cubase. This slices the track up into individual bits
-while they're all selected, 'Normalize." Each hit is now normalized to the exact same level, instead of them all just being brought up by the same amount.

WOW that seems like a great trick!! Has anyone else tried something like that?

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:50 pm

Just wondering:

Is there any point really to use software compressors DURING tracking? I have heard some people using this to control the peaks (of loud vocalists often) but isn't that just fooling yourself? Should the compression with this goal in mind not take place before the A/D conversion (i.e.: you need a hardware compressor for this)?

I think you're better of using software compressors after tracking! But maybe I am missing something here and if so I am damn curious as to what!!

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:20 pm

i read the first post to this and i know why you are confused my goodman, because its a dbx manual youre reading. when i read the dbx stuff i was totally confused as hell too. but compression isnt that complicated. first of all get a good compressor like something optical for starters, something similar to the la-2a. those are first and formest simple as hell to use, just gain and peak reduction. not to mention the good ones are usually tube. if you cant afford that go with the transistor based 1176, cause Urei owns the market for compressors, only difference between limiting amplifiers as opposed to opto-cell compressors is they work like an effect pedal. the attack and release is just how fast the compressor turns on and how fast it turns off (when a high peak occurs.)

you can mess with the ratios until you get what you want, but obviously good compression isn't meant to be heard. when you are fixing your music then yeah you can hear some stuff, but just a basic compression to fit each instrument into the mix at an equal level isn't really meant to be heard. the ratio is just for every 4 decibles that come in only 1 gets out, 20:1, 8:1, infinite:1 all button mode.

when you do that you will sometimes have to use more output gain. also if you turn the attack completely to 0 or off, the compressor acts as an amplifier, so you can use it to fix certain frequency waves.

and no i personally dont believe there is much point in using a compressor or any other dynamic processing during recording. just use your preamps. besides for most project studios to use dynamics during recording would require numerous compressors and equalizers and that just gets pointless. not to mention to record live with a band would require many more microphones, and a room for each musician in my opinion to be isolated. which in turn requires a bigger board. oh yeah and more preamps. more everything.

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:47 pm

liquidstudios wrote:

if you cant afford that go with the transistor based 1176, cause Urei owns the market for compressors, only difference between limiting amplifiers as opposed to opto-cell compressors is they work like an effect pedal.

Actually they are currently in the DJ mixer market....
http://www.ureidj.com/

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:25 am

Shotgun thanks for this post.

On the other hand too bad that you had to write it.

COmpression is a very sofisticated part of the audio world. Doeasn/t mean it's nasty or it has to eb hard to understand, but it needs respect.

I guess you wrote it because of all the stupid questions about preseting the compressor not how they work but how should it set it so i can get over the compression part ASAP.
It's a process (making love to atack button....) that some jsut dont figure out. Too bad.
What shot gun wrote is almost manual like. Examples you wrote so true. And very aplicable.

I would really like to talk more about compression.
Serious ...

Instead of kids asking what
-ratio is better for when tracking a bass 4:1 or 3:1, or
-is -30db treshold for female vocal ok,
-or which compressor should my daddy buy me
SSL, Urei or Drawmer....

i would like to know your expiriences/insights/suggestions about compression.

-on how making double bass a bit firmer.Not the exact settings you use but some tricks... E.g track it with an old telefunken and compress the hell out of it through the attack time
-i really like the opening track of MAnson's Holywood. It is said that the drums are miced mono and the soudn is really achieved with careful micing and huge compression. Any ideas how they did it? e.g long attack time tube compressors, high ratios, and why do you think so?

I see compression also as a psychoacoustic part of mixing process. something you should really get spiritual about. what helps you a lot, what separates good mixes form. bad. Any presets that actually woould work are of no interest to me, because Shotgun explained they vary from sound surce/equipment/musician.....

So people please stop asking stupid question and lets have serious talk.
The ideas behind using the compression, not how the knobs should be set when tracking a 6-part drum set.

We all read books ,interviews, ... of engineers/producers....
There is no right or wrong way to use equipment.
Only expiriences. Some have none, so lets start there...

I love the quote in 'Mixing with your mind':
Its not how loud you get the sound, its how you make the sound loud.

Shotgun dont get me wrong.

Thank you for writing the post.

mat

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