Full circle around a Blumlein Pair - a capella

Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:02 pm

Had a fun recording on Sunday. A vocal group at a college about 90 minutes away hired me to record them for an archival CD for the members. 17 singers - I had them stand in a circle around a Blumlein pair (SPC3) with Oktava MK319s for lead vocal and beatbox. No beatbox on this piece, but ended up with some fun stereo placement quite by accident.

http://www.cheap-tracks.com/mp3/cheap-tracks_kiss_sample2.mp3

Preamp was a Sebatron VMP4000e into a MOTU 24i into Samplitude.

Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:01 pm

I sure hope you acoustic folks don't mind a nasty ol' multitracker in here too much...

zemlin,

I bet that WAS fun!

When I get a gospel choir gig, I like to get the choir to do some stacking with a similar arrangement...

I like to put em' in a circle around my SF12... either with the MP2MH or the DVC. (The VMP sound's great BTW!)

Kind of a rough go sometimes... I've only got 10 pairs of headphones... The choir's got to bring some of their own, but I usually get it done w/o too much hastle. I just drag a 6 channel headphone distro and a BUNCH O' "Y"'s...

It's fun just to watch em' walk around the mic talking... For fun, once I flipped L & R... one poor girl got so disoriented she had to sit down! Twisted Evil

Max

Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:21 pm

No cans for this session. We were on the stage of a smallish auditorium - they were winging it for balance - soloists off the lead mic would step in to bring up their parts a bit - other than that they just checked their distance from the mics and balance by ear.

There were two folks (besides me) monitoring on headphones and providing feeback to the singers.

Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:11 pm

I do hope you mean not all the way round in a circle, because you have to avoid putting anyone in the two out of phase quadrants.

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:41 am

Full circle. I'm completely aware that I had reversed left/right imaging on the back quadrants and reversed phase on the sides - that was the whole point of that setup - I wanted a big, wide sound. Mono compatibility is whacked with the voices on the sides - I know - but I seriously doubt this recording will ever see mono playback.

Did you listen to the track? it sounds good to me.

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:25 am

A little more info and a fuzzy photo:
The blumlein pair is a bit lost in the photo - but singers were in a full circle around the center pair. Lead vocal spot mic at 12:00. Beatbox spot mic at 6:00. Time aligned the lead and beat mics - had to flip phase on the beatbox mic, of course, since it's on the backside of the Blumlein mics.

I guess there were only 16 singers. I didn't count them when I was there - I was told there'd be 17.

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:45 am

coool

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:35 am

DavidSpearritt wrote:

I do hope you mean not all the way round in a circle, because you have to avoid putting anyone in the two out of phase quadrants.

For close-up "vocal in the round" this technique actually works just fine. In situations like this, think less "in-phase" and "out-of-phase" It's really not out of phase. The vocal aiming at the reverse lobe is actually in phase with themselves though yes, out of phase with the person directly on the other side - but that rarely matters in situations like this. Different parts are grouped similarly (SATB all grouped alike) and Soprano is across from Tenor, Alto across from Bass, there really isn't too much to worry about phase wise.

Agreed, the result will sound a tad different than usual, but you'd be surprised just how well it can work. I've done this technique numerous times with a vocal group I record quite often. Usually, their shows are very diverse - they'll go from a full vocal with instrument ensemble down to a quartet and back to full chorus within any given concert. For these smaller quartet recordings, I typically do just that - blumlein with the singers positioned around it. Since you're primarily capturing direct sounds and little to no reflected sounds, there is little issue with phasing.

J.

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:03 am

The singers on the sides (3:00 and 9:00) are singing into the front of one mic and the back of another, so when panned the cones are doing a push-me-pull-you thing that gives it that very wide sound - and it will cancel when played mono.

It also sounds like total crap when played back with a "stereo enhancement" setup, like SRS or Q-Sound since those are playing with the phase.

I think it sounds good when played through proper equipment though. I haven't tried it in my car yet.

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:13 am

I guess I didn't get your picture and description.

When I've done this, I group individuals so that they are in fact facing a lobe. It sounds (and kind of looks - although, I don't see a blumlein array in your picture) as though you were doing a true circle...

That can spell trouble as the point you've mentioned - when you're between lobes, you are in fact hitting opposite polarities. If it cancels in mono (which, in this case it should) that means it will also cancel when you are sitting in the sweet spot of the speakers.

Have you thought about doing a double M/S on this one? (Not a TRUE double M/S more like a Mid/Side with a phase-flipped rear...)

I haven't listened to your recording yet, but once I get to the studio, I will.

J

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:41 am

I must confess, I had not thought through the total picture here until after the recording session - one of those "it seemed like a good idea at the time" moments. I'm still not sure I have any regrets, but I probably would do things differently if I were to do it again.

I considered MS with or dual MS, but the Blumlein is what I chose.

I'm not hearing cancellation (can you hear cancellation Confused

) with speakers - just a very wide image.

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:05 am

Karl,

I'm curious ... which college did you record at?

Mike

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:11 am

Earlham.

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:15 am

zemlin wrote:

Earlham.

I ask because I recorded an all female a cappella group from Miami University in Ohio only a couple of weeks ago, and MU is roughly 90 minutes from Indy!

I used a pr of Schoeps MK21 in NOS. In a live church, pickup was fairly close. I did the 'balance on the fly' too with soloists and beatbox.

This wasn't by chance "The Cheezies," was it?

Mike

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:17 am

No. I don't recall what they call themselves. It starts with a "B" - the Brimley's, perhaps?

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