Reel to reel audio tape& changing a Nagra from 5" t

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:48 am

What is the best brand of audio tape to use for film production and where is a good place to buy new 5" reels of tape, also is it, as I suspect it is, completely unacceptable to erase used tape and reuse them, even if they are high quality and have only been used once? One other thing, is there any place I can get what I need to convert my Nagra IV-L to 7" reels and is it worth the troble for film production ot should I just stick w/ the original 5" reel setup?

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:12 am

Capt,
You are wasting yout time with the Nagra. Go here and ask these Production Mixers what they think:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.arts.movies.production.sound?hl=en
Good Luck,

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:34 pm

It really is an out moded way of recording on set. If you absolutely must use it, do not use 'used' tape. Why take a chance with a days shoot being ruined? Set time is far too expensive to experiment with.

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:50 pm

Nagras are still used to collect sound effects, mostly to record things with very initial high SPLs, such as gunshots. On the set even DATs are being used less and less in favor of digital recorders like the FR-2.

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:22 am

Well, A Nagra may be old shcool but it's what I've got to work with right now.
I plan to mainly use it for smaller projects and my own stuff until I can afford to pick up a Fostex. At 12 hundred bucks (the best price I've found so far for a FR-2) it may take some time to pick up the scratch. My priority right now is a better 35mm camera w/ a crystal sync motor.

In the meantime I plan to put a Tobin sync board in this one and use it w/ my existing equipment until the reels fall off, so I still need to find out where's the best place to get audio tape and if 7in reels are the way to go or if 5 in reels give you enough recording time to reasonably do sound for production on small films.

I do appreciate the advise about not using used tape. I figured as much but just wanted to confirm it.

I did ask once on Cinematography.com why Nagras still go so high on Ebay and they seemed to think more of the Nagras than the responces I've gotten here, something about the "warmth" of the sound. Anyway If you want to read the responses, I think the post was in the Soound for Film section. Actually it's here- www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?showtopic=11783&st=0

Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 1:49 am

dr.sound wrote:

Capt,
You are wasting yout time with the Nagra. Go here and ask these Production Mixers what they think:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.arts.movies.production.sound?hl=en
Good Luck,

I actually went to the site you recommended and found mostly glowing praise of the Nagra and a mention that one had been used on Spiderman and they were prefered by HBO for their productions. To be fair however, there was a general concensis that these machines are getting old and one should be careful when buying and have them serviced before taking them onto the set, but sound quailty-wise everyone stated they were great, legendary even and as one gentleman stated "Bomb proof":

"Analog Nagras carry with them a well deserved respect for audio and mechanical quality and reliability.

Obviously, DAT can sound "fine", but the only advantage 16bit/48k DAT has over a [properly tuned] Nagra 4.2 or IV-S is the absense of tape hiss. The "resolution equivilant" (though an abstract comparison) is higher with Nagra that with DAT, not to mention forgiveness with peaks, etc, etc... So I dissagree with the statement that the best DAT will sound better than the best Nagra. Keep in mind that DAT was not embraced because it sounded better than Nagra (if sound quality were the deciding factor we would have all been using Nagras with Dolby SR rigs instead of DATs). DAT was embraced because it saved money and it can be more convenient. Anyway, the point of the post was to say that even though the Nagra can produce very high quality recordings, it will only continue to do so with proper maintenance-Glen Trew, www.trewaudio.com".

Anyway thanks for the website because my question was answered there. I listed the information for anyone else who uses this old outdated "waste of time"'equpment:

"Current recommended tapes included Quantegy 408 and 480, and BASF (now EMTEC) 468. My preference is Quantegy 480 for the mono Nagras, and BASF 468 for the stereo Nagras.-Glen Trew, www.trewaudio.com"

Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 8:19 am

Capt,
We'll I'm glad you liked the link Cool

Let me tell you about your link to the "Cinematographers " website. The example of "Star Trek" . I'm a Re-Recording Mixer in Hollywood and I know most of the other Re-Recording Mixers here. I personally know the Dialog Mixer who mixed ALL the Star Trek series. The Production Mixer wanted to use the Nagra and he would not change. The Post crew wanted newer technology for numerous reasons, yet the Production Mixer would not change. Since so many production Mixers have their reasons, but nearly ALL the Re-Recording Mixers want less hiss and noise. I don't miss Analog at all. I know the Sound Supervisor on Spiderman 2 (and 3) and he doesn't want Nagra. He wants 24 bit Digital. You have a good time with the Nagra. I enjoyed Analog but I'm past the 7 1/2 ips noisy tape. I'll take good Production Audio. My focus is getting the best sound to the screen. In this day and age it isn't on an Analog machine.
P.S. I've been Mixing for 27 years, and I know what I like. Let me know what the Re-Recording Mixer who gets your 7 1/2 ips tapes thinks.
Have Fun!

Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 10:59 am

Hey, if its just small no budget projects, use the Nagra. You can still learn micing techniques and how to listen critically on a set. If you move to bigger projects, you can rent the newest technology. People fight new technology for two big reasons. One; they are financially invested in the old stuff, and two; its tough to learn new ways of doing things. People are creatures of habit and will justify that however they can. Personally, I get so much bad on set sound, if it was recorded well on a Nagra, it might be a PITA to load in, but I would welcome it over the under recorded/ noisy digital audio I usually get.

Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 10:55 pm

Look, I know this isn't the BEST stuff available, I also have a lowend Konvas 35mm camera, but at least my equipment is lowend PROFESSIONAL equipment. I have no problem with upgrading to digital, 24 bit when I can afford to do so, but for right now this is what I have and from what I can tell It's still viable, perhaps not for long, but it is for now and to call Nagras worthless is, I think, at best, an overstatement and at worst, ellitist. I have no doubt I won't be recording sound for Spiderman 4 with my little maching but as Charles said, should a big job come up, I can always rent the latest and greatest. I do respect the opinion of someone who has been it the business for 27 years, obviously you know more than I do whn it comes to sound, but perhaps, just perhaps, you've forgotten what it is to have to work with equipment that isn't top of the line on small projects.

It sound to me like you mostly work on high end features and not ultra low budget independents. We work with what we got and try to do the best we can. So until I can afford a 24 bit fully digital deck, I would appreciate any advice you may have about getting the most out of my little Nagra and what I can do to optimize sound quality. Any Advice would be greatly appreciated coming from somone with your expirence. And Charles I do appreciate your encouragement. I understand many people's reluctance to give up what they're comforable with. Again I intend to use this equpment for a while then upgrade and will probably keep the machine as a backup. Againg any advice concerning how to get the best sund out of what I've got to work with will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Cool

Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 11:10 pm

Cap'n, no offense, but you're not going to get too much sympathy here from old analog dogs like myself and others. (We're VERY glad to leave the problems and quirks associated with it behind.) For cost-effective, get it done fast and clean, it's now digital all the way. And digital TAPE is fast going away as well, it's chips and memory sticks coming on strong.

But in respect to what you're trying to do, I'd suggest some other routes for the care and feeding of your machine (Plus buying tape for the beastie.)

Look into publications like Tape Op magazine, for starters. There is still a lot of info out there about analog tape, and some folks still prefer it. (I'm not one of them, of course. Wink

) You may also want to stop over to the acoustic music forum, some guys are still using Nagras for field recordings, ditto for the Pro Audio gear forum.

Happy hunting, and I hope you get a few more miles out of that bad boy before you have to cave in to the digital realm. (Trust me, it won't hurt a bit. Thumbs Up

Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 3:06 am

I don't want your sympathy, just your love Cool

. I'll check those sites out but sense I'm a filmmaker, I was hoping the you guys would have a few pointers, maybe some techiques to remember when recording audio for film using analogue, tricks about location sound to remember, what you should take with you, Limitation and how to compensate for them, things to look out for with analogue, ect. Anything you can think of. Thanks.

Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:41 am

Well the same rules apply for analog tape as they do for digital. Get as hot a signal as you can without clipping. People using digital seem to think this rule does not apply to them because the noise floor is so low, but background noise and preamp noise are all still there. If you have to gain up a lot to get good signal and its noisy, re mic! You have to get good saturation on that tape. You should know the scene as well as the actors. So If the scene goes from a whisper to a scream, you can adjust levels accordingly. Remember, you are credited as a mixer, not a recorder. There is a certain amount of fader riding you have to do. Don't just set for the loudest level of sound and forget it. Get the mic as close to the hole, that makes the sound, as framing will allow. My on set mixing experience is limited, but I have gotten enough bad on set sound to know whats going wrong. Keep asking questions.

Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 12:09 pm

<<Well the same rules apply for analog tape as they do for digital. Get as hot a signal as you can without clipping.>>

That rule was used by everyone BUT production mixers!!!
At the risk of overshoots, analog production guys would record low, I mean we're talking dialog at -10 to -15 VU, VU as in analog VU. Hence DrSound's mention of tape hiss.

That rule was actually an analog rule, that was passed on to digital, which is very much abused these days. But thats an argument for a different day.
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Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 11:58 am

Hello Captainvideo,
Quantegy is the only maker left and they make a good product. Use Quantegy 480 on 7 inch reels. I know that Trewaudio.com had several overstocked cases listed on consignment, give Skylor a call. They also have used Nagras if you don't have one. If you already own one what is the model?

I would recommend a Nagra 4.2 since it is self resolving. The stereo time code nagra is not and would require another reel-to-reel unit to play it back in sync.

Feel free to email me directly at pvs@sonic.net

Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 12:10 pm

I missed your posting of the model IV-L. That recorder can be trouble some. As for buying the 7 inch upgrade kit it is expensive and I would recommend against buying it. Sell your recorder and buy a 4.2 that someone else has upgraded to for 7 inch reels. Make sure that any recorder you buy has been serviced by an authorized Nagra service Technician in the last 2 years that that all recommended repairs where made. Buying a used recorder without this knowledge could cost you more than what you paid!

You can of course take the cover off of you recoder and use 7 inch reels. You will just not have cover for it.

The recorder you get or use must have pilot tone, not all do.

You should consider who you are going to work with the audio after you have recorded it. Are you going to digitize it, and with what equipment?

There is always the choice of getting someone to recorde the audio for you. There are many starting sound people out there that can be bought cheaply.

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