Why shouldn't I buy an 002?

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:17 pm

Maybe you guys can come up with a good reason not to because I can't.

Currently, I have just a M-Audio MobilePre interfaced with Audition. It works ok for what I do, but I've been thinking about taking the gear up a step for awhile now, and this seems like a pretty good spot to be at. It looks like it comes with a pretty decent set of plugins and I love the idea of working on a control surface. I've never heard of any real problems with their customer support. Also, Audition doesn't support VSTis, which can be worked around, but is kind of a pain in the ass.

Assuming that I could get it for at least somewhat less than the going price of $2200, I can't see a reason not to take the plunge.

Are there any other options that would give me a control surface, 8 analog inputs, software that supports VSTis, and a set of auxiliary software and plugins as good as this package for less $$$? I'm not really seeing any.

Love always,

CombatWombat

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:07 pm

I have a 002R paired with a Mackie controller and i love it. The command 8 is a good way to go also. What are your CPU specs? I also have a mackie 800r for 8 more pres via adat. for drum tracking. works like a charm everytime. no horror stories here my friend. But if you get the system get the upgraded plugin bundle if it's offered still. Lots more sweet plugins.

Peace Very Happy

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:42 pm

Thanks for the input. Can anyone else chime in before I do this? I was planning to wait until the summer when I would have plenty of money to blow on something like this, but, oddly enough, I just ran across an ad on craigslist tonight and I'm going to check it out tomorrow. I could potentially get the whole factory bundle setup for about $1200. That seems like a hell of a deal to me. Problem is, that is literally about 1/2 the money that I have to my name right now (self-supporting college student and the academic year is very cruel to my wallet) and that makes me a little uncomfortable. I'll be making good money in just a few weeks though.

I don't think I should pass up this opportunity though. Sorry for the useless post here...I'm just kind of thinking out loud here in front of the RO community.

Oh yeah...computer specs.

I don't really know a whole lot about my system, actually. I really only know that It's a P4 2.8GHz hyperthreaded, 512 mb ram (soon to be upgraded to at least 1 gig), 120 gb 7200 rpm hd. That's pretty much all I know about it. Confused

Rock on,
Combat Wombat

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:06 am

Of course I have little good to say about PT, but... to each his own... but I would encourage you to look into Sequoia. I don't know from actual personal experience, but the guys over in the Acoustic Music forum are very hyped on it. And the stuff I've listened to that some of the guys over there have put up, sound really, really good. Definitely worth checking out.

A comment/suggestion about your box and drives...

The RAM will definitely help. Windoze, version whatever, can't get enough RAM.

IMO, you should consider adding at least two more drives; Add an 80Gig and make it your Primary drive... move the OS over to that one. Add a second 80Gig and make that your scratch disk... move your swap file to that drive as well. If you can afford to get 10k rpm (or faster) drives... all the better. Then you can keep the 120Gig for all your projects.

By having everything on one drive, you're killing your system performance. By moving the OS and Swapfile to their own drives, you can expect up to a 20-60% increase in overall system "speed".

Depending upon the mobo chipset, you will see things like latency decrese, better performance of plugin's, fewer lock-ups, etc.

DEFINITELY look into some sort of backup system. The native Windoze backup sux. There are some decent shareware packages and there's commercial packages like Retrospect that can be had, at very reasonable prices. Look for a decent 1 drive/1 tape unit. Might be OK with used, but don't get a real OLD tape unit. LTO-II and LTO-III are the current standards... with LTO-II in the last third of it's lifecycle.

Good luck!

Max

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:28 am

I know I added 8 more hard drives and my mixes have never sounded better, yes I would definately say that the 002 would be a worthwhile upgrade. I wouldn't worry about your ram and hard drives unless something indicates your lacking.

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:08 pm

Thanks for the advice folks. It's very much appreciated. I guess I better start learning more about computers (I don't even know what a swap file is). Smile

So after sleeping on it and reading your comments, I think I feel more comfortable going for it. Thanks a lot!

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:56 pm

An alternative would be to purchase something like the M-Audio ProjectMix I/O as your audio interface/control surface and use Cubase, or Sequoia, or Cakewalk, or some other audio recording program.

Or there's the Tascam 1082 that you could use as your interface.

There's nothing wrong with the 002, but there are other options out there so take your time, research and make your decision wisely.

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:13 am

I would not buy the 002 or project mix because both are renowned for poor sound and build quality. Try going to RME or Motu if you are after budget gear. Much better value for money. Do lots of research before you buy anything. Your budget will dictate what you end up with. You may have to sacrifice track count and features to make way for quality. M-Audio is producing some really cheap and nasty stuff at the moment. I hope they can lift thier game. Pro tools is an option not a sure thing, many other software packages can do the same job just as well if not better.

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:01 pm

"...Pro tools is an option not a sure thing, many other software packages can do the same job just as well if not better...."

Better???!! Mmh, I don't know and I hope you're not referring to Logic!

Smile

(They all sound good though)

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:25 pm

Quote:

By having everything on one drive, you're killing your system performance. By moving the OS and Swapfile to their own drives, you can expect up to a 20-60% increase in overall system "speed".

Could someone explain this or link me to something that would? I've got an 80 and a 120 gig and I've been trying to figure out the best way to utilize them effeicently.

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:04 pm

Artifex wrote:

Could someone explain this or link me to something that would? I've got an 80 and a 120 gig and I've been trying to figure out the best way to utilize them effeicently.

I run MOTU on a Mac and am IT/Systems Admin for a photography/printing co running Mac's and Windoze boxes for imaging programs like Photoshop... I'm responsible for moving and processing some 60 million images annually. So, keep in mind that some, but not all, of my opinion is based upon experience, but some on practical conjecture.

http://www.informit.com/articles/article.asp?p=25448&rl=1

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/famiDocument?lc=en&cc=us&product=12455&dlc=en&docname=bph06569

http://techrepublic.com.com/5254-6257-0.html?forumID=99&threadID=183520&messageID=2003047&id=4260638

OK, you'll note that in the links I've provided, that one of the common testimonies is that with 1Gb RAM, that a paging file isn't supposed to be very big... if at all. That's true for general computing. This might not necessesarily be true for audio... more on that in a minute.

A little history/practicum... The paging file uses system resources to access the drive buss(es). If the buss access is the same (single) buss as the OS and the application/data, then all this data is being forced onto the same buss, in a single drive system.

There is a finite number of transactions that can occur within a buss. That number of transactions is less than the total number of transactions than a CPU can handle. In the case of a standard IDE bus, the CPU is capable of handing a "maximum" of 4 such sets of transactions.

If you separate the data from the OS/Application by using two drives, you ease the bottleneck of the finite bandwidth of the one buss, and spread it over two busses.

Now back to the audio practicum... OK, let's say we took the OS, Swap/Paging file and application and separated these from the data. That allows our data to flow independantly of everything else. Depending upon the amount of data we are reading and writing, it can theoretically be a 50% increase in performance... again... in theory... make sense?

http://forums.pcworld.co.nz/archive/index.php/t-43180.html

Well, it now gets a bit cloudy when we introduce SATA drives... This is because with a SATA drive, and it's physical and electronics allow considerably more data to pass through the buss. Howver, that bandwidth is limited to the design of the mobo. With the right mobo and drive, a SATA II drive should deliver as much as 10X the amount of data bandwidth as a standard ATA/IDE drive.

http://www.sweetwater.com/expert-center/techtips/d--08/22/2000

Here, the practical reality is where a good bit of rubber meets the road. Again, the concept of separating the data from everything else is the key.

Now, lets take the next logical step... which is based on a great deal of practical experience in imaging...

With imaging, e.g. Photoshop, the software uses a great deal of harddrive space and system bandwidth to store temporary information. This temporary information is called for and placed by (written and read) the system via the paging file process. No by the paging file, but be the same process. (The timing and method) It get tedious to get into the details... imagine that?!?

By adding another drive and designating it for temp file use, you see another performance increase. The practical increase in system performance I have documented is an average of approximately 15 percent. That's kind of a goofy number to come up with, but I came up with that figure based upon production figures. Where we documented an average of 15% more work throughput on systems with the extra temp file drive.

Lo and behold, in my investigations of PC based audio software, I have found a number of folks who indicate that they use temp files in an almost identical fashion as Photoshop. So, the final analysis is that for any audio software the uses temp files, the system can be further benefitted by adding the third drive for such files.

Regardless whether you accept the last statement, the reality is that your system WILL benefit from two drives. Putting the fastest drive as your OS drive will deliver the application and OS much more efficiently than the slower drive.

IMO, to build the fastest Windoze based audio system, I'd create one based upon a dual processor mobo. Adding as much high speed cache as possible. 2 Gig of RAM. Use 2 SATA drives in a RAID 0 as the OS drive. Put a "second" SATA drive in as a temp file drive.

And FINALLY...
Either adding a third SATA RAID 0 "drive" as the data drive.

-OR-

A SCSI RAID 5-0

-OR-

An iSCSI SAN RAID 5-0 on a fiber channel HBA.

Putting a SCSI tape backup and a DVD backup drive in would be the way to round it all out.

X

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:45 am

Wow. That was a really helpful post Mad Max. Thanks.

Thanks to everyone else for their opinions and advise as well. The deal on the 002 fell through, which, in hindsight, I think is for the best. I was feeling a bit rushed and didn't have all the info I probably ought to to make a really informed decision.

So, I think I'm gonna blow some money on an Epiphone Casino (wish I could afford an old ES-330...drool) and decent mic pre. That way I'll have the rest of the summer to really get my head on straight when I have the money to kick out for a new interface.

Cheers for beers,

CombatWombat

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:53 am

Combat wombat:
would you be using pro tools or just the interface ?? because digi systems cost alot and for the money, unless you plan on using pro tools extensively, there are other option possibly better suited. First of all, i had a friend who bought a 002 control surface and it broke in 6 months. i have been to guitar centre and have seen the control surfaces piled up because they break/stop working/have ceased to be! I work in video post and have a 002 rack, works like a charm. of course,I use pro tools night and day so the rack works well for me. my suggestion: stay away from the 002 control surface.
I have heard good stuff from motu 828s.

File and computer management ,as has been explained in previous posts, is key in making any DAW flow nicely. Smile

Good luck
A

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:10 pm

I have a digi 002R and am having a blast with it. I've actually gone without an control board. Do all my mixing using a mouse and automation. Figured I'd start out this way and see how I'd like it and haven't looked back. There was a lot of support and learning tools to get me started.

On the other hand, there's a recent thread in which MadMax gives a good summary of the drawbacks of PT: ties to the proprietary hardware, updates that leave previous versions unsupported, etc. And he's giving good advice on how to make the most out of it if you decide to go that way. Also, I agree that the software is the strength of the system. It's only worth doing if you are commited to PT. Another specific drawback of the oo2 is that I think you are limited to 48k external digital signals.

As others have said, it is worth doing a lot of research before making this choice. Everything in this price range has made choices and compromises. It's a question of which pluses and minuses are important to you. Admittedly it's hard filtering out the good info from the dross here on the net. Too many people with fragile egos trying to justify their decisions by saying that everything else "sux." Good luck.

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:52 pm

FWIW, you might consider lurking on eBay for a while to see if you can pick up a 001. Sometimes they go really cheap, and you can do most of what you can do on a 002 on a 001. I've got a 001 and an older Mac G4 that I picked up for a song, and they work great.

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