Why good players sounds so bad.

Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 11:31 pm

I heard one of the worst bands I ever heard last nite. And most of the players in the band were fairly good. But they sounded like a giant loud indecernable mess. And these were supposed professional guys who should know better.

Four piece band, the two guitar players just buried the whole band, walking all over each other's leads and the vocals, the kick durm was mic'd so loud it was just jumble in the mix, the drummer (another supposed pro) over played, and had no backbeat... in short it was a wall of unidentifiable noise.
My friend kept telling me what great players they all were and it was the room.....Wailing away on rhythm guitar and burying the rest of the band has nothing to do with the room accoustics I told him.....My point was how good could these guys really be if they don't have enough sense to play in proper porportion to each other and stop walking all over each other, and get a drum that understands the basics of putting a beat across. These guys in the band seem to be completely oblivious to how bad they sounded. I was thinking to myself, if I was up there and was trying to sing, I'd turn around and scream at them, "Shut the F**K up I'm trying to sing".........
Point one- I'm tired of hearing people blame "the sound" and the room for what is really bad musicianship. 99 percent of the circumstances I've come across, is that the sounds sucks because or the indvidual players not the sound system. They simple don't know how to play out of the way and let the lead/vocal come thru, they over play and play with muddled tone and/or to loud.
Point two: I don't care how technical or proficient a person is on their instrument, they are still chump change amatures if they don't know how to fit into a band setting and make a good sound that is soft and cuts, and play a part that is simple and effective.

The group I saw last nite, were all suppose to be all seasoned old hands according to my friend. And I must say they all were very proficient at their instruments, but my point to my friend was that just because you are proficient at your instrument doesn't mean you know anything about music or how to play and sound good. Music and sounding good in a band is so much more than just being able to play an instument.
And STOP blaming the sound system !

Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 12:38 am

I've seen that band many times! Incredibly skilled technicians who can't play MUSIC. Problem is usually that they're trying too hard to show off, which keeps them too busy to listen to each other. Andy

Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 2:27 am

JoeJoeMan wrote:

they are still chump change amatures if they don't know how to fit into a band setting and make a good sound that is soft and cuts, and play a part that is simple and effective.

I agree with your statement except for this part. A "good soft" sound is preference, as is simplicity.

But yeah I've seen this all too often. It especially blows when you're the guy behind the mixer and have to explain to "back seat soundguys" that the vocals are as loud as they can go - and the only way to turn the guitars down is to climb on stage and reach for that Marshall head set on eleven, because I took them out of the mix a long time ago!

Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 3:44 am

There's no excuse for poor stage craft, other than the fact its not taught anywhere and there are too few good examples of how to perform on stage. Their could be a damn good career for someone going around to these a**e bandits and offering some basic direction and stage craft.

Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 5:07 am

[quote="Ballz"]

JoeJoeMan wrote:

I agree with your statement except for this part. A "good soft" sound is preference, as is simplicity.

A better way to describe a good band would be a 'well oiled machine'

Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 6:05 am

"seasoned pro" = "someone who has been kicked out of several bands."

Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 12:56 pm

i printed up a list of "tips" (requirements) that i give to each member before a show.

basically details proper mic usage, as well as a quick "how to sound great on stage" paragraph. of course that's where it mentions that i have a FRONT OF HOUSE system for the FRONT OF THE HOUSE.

"just keep yourself as loud as you need to hear yourself. i have plenty of microphones and 2400 watts of power. let me handle the audience, you handle yourself. and if necessary, i can put you through the monitors as much as you want too"

.. or something like that.

it's obvious to us sound fellas, but for the average joe schmoe guitar player, he may be used to not having his amp mic'ed up or something. who knows..

then if there are complaints i can give a copy to the complainer and tell them that the band has read over this and elected not to follow my advice on how to sound good.

although generally it works REALLY well... as long as you arent a dick when you talk to the band they generally WANT to sound good.

my 2cents

Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 9:43 am

Thanks for confirming my thoughts guys.....At least I know it's not just me.
Players have a tendency to just think about what they are doing/playing....as if they are just at home playing along with a CD, they don't think in terms of - what does the song need, does it even need me at all to play anything.
I have a group, I try (try) to keep the players in balance, etc, when I suggest to a player to just play a simple part like a simple note or two to fill a musical hole in the arrangement - I usualy get "yea but I'm won't be doing anything" - you see the delema, they thing they have to play alot and play all the time. Point being that cluttering up the arrangement is one part of the problem.
A big problem with the "NOISE" band I saw the other night was that both or the guitar players were strumming chords and playing none stop on every song....most of the time both of them were pounding out conflicting overly complex rhythms - LOUD, the vocals didn't have a chance.
I kept jokingly telling my buddy, "the drummer forgot to bring his snare" .....I thought they didn't mic it, but every so often, you could hear it when he decided to hit it properly, in the meantime his kick drum was mic and set to destroy the world.
And you know what's funny is that - just about every band I see/hear does the same thing, albiet the guys I saw last weekend really take the cake. And these guys are touted as the 'pros'

Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:23 am

Sounds to me to be just a bit of an ego battle. It's bound to happen with some musicians. A bad case of too many cooks in the kitchen. Sure it's fine to have a kitchen full of cooks but they can't all be on the stove at the same time. (Sorry, it's almost lunch.)

It's great to have a band full of musicians that know their craft. That's what Jazz is all about isn't it? It's helpful though, when each band member knows when to play rhythm.

In regards to so called "technical musician who can't play music". Those things are a matter of opinion. There are plenty of people who don't like Dream Theatre because it's too "technical". That doesn't make it any less music for people who can appreciate it.

Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 3:37 pm

Was that for my comment, hueseph? I wasn't speaking of bands like Dream Theatre, just the "hometown hero" types who spent too much time shredding in the basement and not enough time listening to what the rest of the players are doing. I grew up on old school progressive rock, so I can appreciate technique! Peace! Andy

Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 4:04 pm

I suppose I took that the wrong way. My bad. There's plenty of shredders that shred for the sake of shredding. At any rate no offense meant. I just get tired of people who think that "if it isn't the blues, there's no feeling in it".

Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 5:07 pm

No offense taken! Just wanted to make sure you knew what I meant by my comments. Cool! Andy

Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 7:11 pm

Well, this thread has had at least one positive result. It inspired me to play my Standing in the Shadows of Motown DVD. It's not the world's greatest documentary, but I have a great time with it. Great way to watch a whole battalion on musicians who could stay out of each others way and create great grooves. Typically three guitarists playing these tiny parts in perfect sync. Two pianos, organ. vibes, tambourine, drums, congas, and BASS. Horn section, backup singers. AND plenty of room for the lead singer to be a star. There're people who can still do it, but there's too many who have the guitar hero mentality (happens in all genres).

Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 7:38 pm

I love that movie. It re-newed my interest in live of the floor recording. Its not often these days you get a chance to work with high quality musicians. So its nice to see what music can be.

Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 12:14 am

BobRogers Wrote:

Quote:

Well, this thread has had at least one positive result. It inspired me to play my Standing in the Shadows of Motown DVD. It's not the world's greatest documentary, but I have a great time with it. Great way to watch a whole battalion on musicians who could stay out of each others way and create great grooves.

Excuse my ignorance but........
So do groups like this (Standing in the.....) have a musical leader/conductor who oversees what the group sounds like while it's playing and he says...."Hey you...you're to loud ---- and you on the piano bring it up more on your solo". I'm assuming that someone must write and actual arrangement to, right ?

I think the trouble with your typical band is that usually no one is musically in charge, so all the player are just doing whatever they fell like it, and playing as loud or soft as the want, while no one is being the set of ears for the overall band sound......so everyone just wails away and let's the sound guy try to sort it out. The problem with someone trying to act as the conductor (for lack of a better term) in your typical band with the no-so-pro-players is that someone always gets ticked off whenever anyone tries to tell him anything - and just saying "turn it down" are fightin' words.... Laughing

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