make or break

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:52 pm

Hello good people of recordingland,

I'm still pretty new here, but I'm looking for a little fellow sound-person advice.

I just got offered my first (volunteer) gig helping some good friends with a video they made. It was shot about 4 years ago and then sat in the closet for awhile. It's a good little film, about 15mins in all, with some really neat sequences, pretty experimental overall. They recently got around to finishing editing it. I was asked to help them fix up the audio, as well as write/record music for it.

Here's the thing.... they didn't do any planning whatsoever in terms of the audio (surprize!). All the audio was recorded with the built-in mic on the camera. There was no sound person involved at all, no boom, no lavs, etc. Knowing this (and explaining to them how non-ideal this is) I still agreed to work on it because I think it's worth completing.

But today I got some further unhappy news: as we were watching a scene together and there was a "delay" on the dialogue at one point. I asked them where it was coming from--if they had added effects to the audio-- and they said no. Through further investigation I found out that in editing the video they have actually layered footage in many of the scenes--leaving the original audio in as well. In other words, whatever quicktime movie they give me to dump into my software is going to essentially have multitracked audio content (!). I tried to explain to them that dealing with bad audio is one thing, but dealing with essentially pre-mixed bad audio is a nightmare. They weren't so accomidating. They said they could give me separate tracks for some scenes, but for others it would just take too much time for them to find the original clips.

So here's my question to you guys: do you, like me, think that this is a ridiculous proposition on their part? Do you think that from a sound perspective this is probably not worth getting involved in? I had hoped it would be a good starting point for me with film sound, but I'm scared I'm just walking into a mine field.

thanks in advance,
Wink

P6

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:41 pm

Do you want to do it? Will it be fun for you or perhaps some good practice?

Since its a freebie...here's what I would do. Tell them that you will do your best but make no promises. Sit down with them and watch the entire thing...focusing on the audio. Point out the parts that will be hard to fix. This way, when they get their finished product, they won't have any illusions.

Now getting to the problem at hand...Can the parts with bad audio be re-recorded, you know, like doing a voice over? If so, that may be a way for you make a bad audio track a whole lot better.

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:28 am

Thanks for your reply pr0gr4m. You helped me put it in perspective. It would be fun, partly because it's such a mess there's a lot of leeway for me to experiment, etc. I guess I was just worried that it would turn into a monster of a project because of all the things that need cleaning up. And I guess I worried that it might turn out to be something I'd be hesistant to play for anyone. (Although my friend did point out I won't be listed as "location sound"...thank god. heh heh).

They had thought of doing some ADR but at the last minute the director decided the audio was fine. I hadn't even had a chance to listen through it myself. Maybe this is a typical scenario with film: the post sound person is just given what they're given and has to cope. Maybe it's my skills of coping with the hierarchies of film that need developing here. ?? Wink

Your advice re sitting down with them and laying out what's possible is good. My only worry is that so far the director has been a little annoying in this respect. I'll flag a potential issue and he'll brush if off as no big deal, e.g. last night when I pointed out that the dialogue was really low and that there was white noise coming from somewhere he said: "Oh you can just filter out the noise and boost the levels of the dialogue". And then he went on the describe how he's seen guys change levels before---he seemed to be describing volume fades. It's difficult when someone takes this approach: of seeing it as something they know about and view as simple.

Anyway, I've decided I'll just try my best and see what happens.

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:00 pm

pollysix wrote:

e.g. last night when I pointed out that the dialogue was really low and that there was white noise coming from somewhere he said: "Oh you can just filter out the noise and boost the levels of the dialogue". And then he went on the describe how he's seen guys change levels before

Ahh, I see. He's one of those "I saw them do it on CSI so I know it can be done" kinda fellas. You need to communicate with him that, Yes it can be done, but only to a point, a point which he may not be happy with.

Just because he thinks/says it can be done, doesn't mean that it can be done to his satisfaction. You just need to make him understand that you are not Skywalker Sound. Tell him you'll do your best and stress that the material you have to work with is marginal at best. Maybe take a 5 minute portion, a part that's particularly horrible and work it. Let him hear it. Then he'll have an idea about what can and can't be done.

Basically, if you think it's going to be relatively tough to get a good result, give him a small example of a finished product so his expectations are set at the right level from the get go.

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:58 am

A director should direct and leave the audio to the audio engineer. I have worked with my share of directors who constantly say "we will fix it in post" which unfortunately is not possible when we finally get to posting the film. I remember one such case where we were filming on a street with a lot of fog. The pictures the cinematographer was getting were beautiful but we had problems with the lens fogging up and the actors were having problems with their lines because they were all stuffed up. I told the director that we could only use the material for cutting and we would have to do some ADR later. He said "naw will fix it in post" but when we got to posting it the actors, who had long since moved on, sounded like a commercial for a sinus medicine and we could not get someone else to sound like them and their voices were throughout the rest of the film so it was either replace the whole film sound with ADR or let the nasally sounding dialog remain. The director chose the latter and he says to this day that "some one should have told him about the
problem" He conveniently forgets that I did just that on the set.

Best of luck!

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:53 am

pollysix wrote:

"Oh you can just filter out the noise and boost the levels of the dialogue". .

"Let me get you the price on the plug-in to filter out the white noise."

(print out page for Sonic Solutions NoNoise, SoundSoap, [or whatever is appropriate to your setup-- some audio cleaning tool]).

With the way you've described it, it'll probably be easier to ADR the whole thing-- 15 minutes is NOT that long for an ADR session. Assuming only three takes or so per person per line, it shouldn't take more than eight hours if you get it right (and much less if you have VocAlign).

I'd also suggest (for your own education/enjoyment/enlightenment) (and possibly the willing folks who are interested in the film) having a foleying session for the incedentals; the sounds that get captured in the camera usually sound... well, bad.

With the music... well, I'm no musician. I've got no experience there.

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:31 am

"Let me get you the price on the plug-in to filter out the white noise."

(print out page for Sonic Solutions NoNoise, SoundSoap, [or whatever is appropriate to your setup-- some audio cleaning tool]).[/quote]

Heh heh, you're toooo funny. Nice one. I knew I'd find some moral support here. Smile

And thanks to others too. The suggestion to give the guy some sample bits sounds like a good one. And then we can take it from there. It's just hilarious/sad to see how the dynamic I saw years ago back in school between 'soundpeople' and 'filmpeople' continues into the real world.

Oh well. No, no $1500 plug-ins for me at this point. Wink

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