Live audio to camera recording

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:44 pm

Hi all,

im new to audio recording and i want to video record some church services with better audio recordings, clearer sounds and not just use the camera built-in mic, and i need some suggestions/help. so far i've found out the following.
from the main console that feeds the audio to the main speakers of the church i have to get a line out into a second console which will control the audio levels that go into the camera.
the second console will have the line in from the main console which controls the speakers volume level and add an shotgun mic to add an ambient sound of the congregation to the recording.
the main console is a yamaha emx2000 http://www.usersmanualguide.com/yamaha_audio/mixers/emx2000
the second is a cheapie lem-RD82FX http://www.generalmusic.com/html/prodotti.asp?cod=rdseri&mod=951368&lingua=eng&frame=sp
i've been told two different ways on hooking these two up. 1) is throught the tape out rca outputs from the yamaha into the tape in or the 5/6 or 7/8 line in of the LEM console.
2) from the ST 1 o ST 2 of the yamaha again either tape in or 5/6 7/8 line in of LEM console.
o should i use the monitors output so i can control each channel going into the LEM console.
which would be the best input into the LEM console?
also the output from LEM to the camcorder, i've been recommended the tape out, the input jack of the camcorder is a mini 3.5mm jack. or should i use the main lines out like if to a normal speaker? and just get an adapter from two lines to a stereo 3.5 jack?

about HISS, what should i look for in order to avoid getting hiss sound from the mics.

thank you in advance.

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:50 pm

I know what you'd like to have. I know what you'd like to do. The first issue is what kind of camcorder will be used? You've already indicated that it has 1/8", mini phone plugs. All cheap camcorders have those. Are you speaking of headphone outputs? Microphone inputs? Line inputs? This is a big factor. It sounds to me that your cheap camcorder has really awful 1/8" input for external crappy microphones. It doesn't sound like your camcorder can accept a proper line level input? And in all probability, the 1/8" external microphone input will also be plagued with the camcorders own internal "AVC" or automatic volume control. This will absolutely prevent you from obtaining what you want, period.on

You need a semiprofessional camcorder or what is sometimes referred to as a "prosumer" camcorder such as the Canon XL1/2, etc.. These better camcorders have provisions for manual volume control or, manual volume with limiter. That's what you need. They can also accept RCA or XLR microphone or line level inputs. Usually switchable. Using an adapter to try and knock down the line level out of a mixer to accommodate the much lower microphone input level on the cheap camcorder will still yield awful results. Unfortunately, most automatic volume control circuits in cheap camcorders can not be bypassed or shut off. They are designed to pick up everything regardless of the volume level from the quietest to the loudest. That's no good. It's not professional. Sorry. All you'll get is HISS, regardless what you attempt to do. But you have already discovered that. Plus, there should be no reason to feed your main house audio console to another cheaper console. That is totally counterproductive and there is no reason to do so. Who sold you that bill of goods? A guitar Center salesman? The church sound guy? I hope not but probably?

Unless you can obtain a camera that features line level input capabilities, you're screwed. Thankfully, God will forgive you for your errors.

So, how to remedy this problem? Here is my suggestion.

You purchase a standalone, relatively inexpensive tabletop DVD recorder. Something like I have such as the Toshiba D-R400. This is an inexpensive unit available at Best Buy, Circuit City and many others, for around $150, a bargain. This is a DVD recorder that does not include a television tuner circuit. It is simply a recorder and player. Just like a cassette deck. You take the main stereo output from your main front of House console. You will then plug the audio from the console into the RCA red and white jacket inputs on the DVD recorder. You then take the video output from the camcorder. This can be either that yellow composite RCA video output or the mini DIN S video output to the input of the DVD recorder. This will be the only way that you will be able to make successful sounding and good-looking recordings. The secondary advantage is that the standard speed of the DVD, "SP" yields a high-quality picture with 2 hours of record time in comparison to the cheap camcorders 1 hour DV tapes, standard speed. If you are using VHS? It's time to throw that out. Not really. You can use it for its video output only. Don't even think about recording on it except as an emergency backup archive that includes the crappy onboard microphone.

The DVDs are easily duplicated in most any modern computer in less than real-time. So making copies is a snap. They're really just is no other way around what you want to do. If you still want to feed the DVD recorder from the secondary cheap mixer, go for it. But it's unnecessary. There is no rational reason to feed a second console to feed the recorder. Your primary console has the capabilities of multiple outputs so that any of those other outputs can be utilized for recording purposes.

I'm sure Jesus loves you for your efforts.
Ms. Remy Ann David
former chief engineer for the Foundry United Methodist Church of Washington DC. One of our nation's presidential churches. (What Presidents? Lincoln, Truman, Roosevelt, Clinton others I forget. But everybody knew that Bill was a Baptist but Hillary was the Methodist and that's where they went)

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:51 am

yeah you're right i should of also mention the camera i have, i dont know what your thoughts are on my cheapie cameras 2 x sony VX2000E i know in some points is not as good as the canon GXL1, but i've heard a lot of good reviews on it. as an entry level camera.
and well having stated that i dont have a cheapie camera and that infact it has all the main features i need to acomplish what i want to some degrees Razz

we can skip that whole paragraph on AVC.

thank you for your suggestion, i can use a tabletop dvd recorder as a back up, why? because our church services are long 3-5 hours i need to edit the service from two different cameras before i burn them to dvd.
from your suggestion how would i get ambient sound into the dvd recorder if i feed the dvd deck from the main stereo output without feeding the mic to the main speakers?
maybe you should of asked those simples questions and it would have saved you all that explaining. im sure God will also forgive you for jumping to conclusions. Wink

thank you

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:00 am

Yes, understand this... when you ask audio people how do I get good audio for my camera?, the first thing they will ask is "which camera." We are getting absolutely 'hammered' with a new flaver of camera every day.
IMO the Sony VX2000 is pretty good for a consumer camera, and I believe it has switchable stereo mic/line TRS mini jack, and the auto gain can be turned off.

Look at this product.

http://www.beachtek.com/dxa4.html

Hiss may be a byproduct of this camera.

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:13 am

MrHector wrote:

yeah you're right i should of also mention the camera i have, i don't know what your thoughts are on my cheapie cameras 2 x Sony VX2000E i know in some points is not as good as the canon GXL1, but I've heard a lot of good reviews on it. as an entry level camera.
and well having stated that i don't have a cheapie camera and that in fact it has all the main features i need to accomplish what i want to some degrees :P :lol: we can skip that whole paragraph on AVC.

thank you for your suggestion, i can use a tabletop DVD recorder as a back up, why? because our church services are long 3-5 hours i need to edit the service from two different cameras before i burn them to DVD.
from your suggestion how would i get ambient sound into the DVD recorder if i feed the DVD deck from the main stereo output without feeding the mic to the main speakers?
maybe you should of asked those simples questions and it would have saved you all that explaining. I'm sure God will also forgive you for jumping to conclusions. :wink:

thank you :D

First off try to find a church with shorter services <GRIN>

We are doing something similar only with concerts and not QUITE as long.

We are using two cameras

A Sony FX-1

and a Panasonic PV-GS300

We use the FX-1 for the tight shots and the Panasonic for the cover shots. When we need to change DV tapes we rely on the other camera for the time needed.

We record the concert to DAT and CD also relying on the other recorder when have to change tapes or CDs.

We record the audio onto the cameras from the built in microphones.

When we get to post we match up the audio from the cameras with the audio from the DAT and with everything being digital there is very little drift in the audio between the DAT and the DV tapes. The most we have noticed is a couple of milliseconds at the end of the concert which we can usually re-sync without any problems.

We are using Vegas 8.0A and it has a multi-cam setup so once you get what you want loaded in to the DVW you can pretty much switch between cameras with no problems.

The problem I have noticed with most consumer or prosumer video cameras is that the audio seems to be an after thought and not something the camera manufactures thought much about. It tends to be somewhat hissy and maybe OK for some things it is not quite ready for prime time especially if you are talking about music and good quality.

Best of Luck. Sounds like quite a project. For a 1.5 hour concert it usually takes us about 15 hours in post to do it correctly so if you are doing post for a 3 to 5 hour service I can't imagine how long the posting might take. Also what do you output to for distribution and archiving?

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:48 pm

thanks Thomas,

the services i end up cutting to about 1 1/2 - 2hrs long. i usually start recording a cam about 5 minutes earlier so when we switch tapes there's always a cam recording.
i once tried recording straight to the computer but i noticed the drift was a fair bit so i havent tried it since.
i'm currently using vegas 7.0e and i downloaded the double take script to get multi-cam set up but im looking at upgrading to 8 soon.

i burn a main copy for archiving on a verbatim DL so i dont have to compress, but thats why i try to make my final copies a max 2hrs long so there's no much compressing. for distribution i use verbatim dvd+r 16x which i've found it has the best compability and playback on most dvd players.

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