Large Diaphragm condenser for choirs/orch/etc.

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:47 am

Hello...

Well... I'd like a few suggestions on Large Diaphragm condensers. Basically, I need something to record choirs and orchestras, and possibly concert bands with. Also, as a Mid mic for M/S recording. I was only hoping to spend $100 - $200... but it looks like I would have to spend a minimum of $600 to get a quality mic! However, I've been looking at the following:

Studio Projects C3
MXL 2003/2006
Shure KSM 32
CAD GXL 2200/3000
Rode NT2000

The Rode and the Shure are expensive... but I might be able to score them cheaper if I find a used model. However, I figured I might as well see what some of the pros think. Maybe you have suggestions not listed above? I've read great things of the Shure KSM 44, but that's just unrealistically expensive for me (I'm still a college student!).

Thank you.

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:48 am

I forgot to mention that I actually have a mic very similar to the MXL 2200... but it's a "no name" mic that I bought from someone for like $30. I don't know what the brand is. I used it for a M/S recording for a choir once and everyone was happy with the results... so I guess it works OK. I think I might prefer something that I KNOW myself is good.

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:31 pm

i'm not a professional, so take this for what it's worth.

i went to sam ash one day to buy a couple mics to do exactly what you want to do. i out of them, i tried out the Rode NT2000 and the NT2-a. Honestly, i didn't a difference. The only thing different between the NT2000 and the NT20-a is that the NT2000 has the variable polar patterns, bass roll offs, and pad. If i'm not mistaken, they actually share the same capsule, but don't quote me on that. I ended up going with the NT2-a since it's $200 cheaper. Also, try playing the used market to see what you can come up with; i liked my rode so much that i just bought another on ebay for $260.

as far as the shure ksm mics, i have the ksm27 and love it...got that on ebay too. i don't have the ksm32, but when my band recorded our ep, our producer Lee Dyess actually used one to cut the vocals over a AT4060 (a badass mic, btw) and a neumann M149...to me, that says something.

You could also check out the audio-technica stuff. the at4033 and at4040 are definitely worth checking out. do a search on here and you'll find a lot of fans of both.

-dave

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:21 pm

Don't spend any real cash until you've at least checked out the AT 4000 series.

The 4040 and 4050 are two of their best, and I use them a lot on a variety of things, including choral and instrumental work. The 4040 is simply a good work-horse single element LD cardioid mic, with a -10 pad and bass rolloff switch for under $500. The pricier 4050 has those features as well, but is a dual-element capsule, which means it also has a figure of eight setting for bluemline use, as well as an omni setting for use as an omni on its own, or used with another 4050 in MS mode. very nice options to have in a mic that's under $600. They look great onstage (disappear on most TV shoots since they're jet-black) and they're quite rugged.

Another good one to check out is the 4033, in the same price range as the 4040. Their lower end mics aren't bad either; the 3035 is wonderful too, regardless of price. (Usually about $299 each.)

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:28 pm

+1 on Joe's post.

Search for Audio Technica on this here site.
Many of us have given a rundown or offered an anecdote or two about their mics.

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:35 pm

Just curious - can the AT4050 be set between the pattern positions, to give a wide-cardioid pattern for example?

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:45 pm

Quote:

Just curious - can the AT4050 be set between the pattern positions, to give a wide-cardioid pattern for example?

no it can't...just the 3 patterns.

-dave

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:04 am

JoeH wrote:

The pricier 4050 has those features as well, but is a dual-element capsule SNIP!

Interesting...

I'll be using a pair of 4050s to record some 'lhamo' (Tibetan Opera) in the nicely reverberant hall at the Tibetan Institute of Performing Arts (TIPA) in 1.5 hours from now. I'll be using them in MS Blumlein cofiguration (MS with a bidirectional M capsule, facing forward), because I am not sure if they are a matched pair or not; so putting them in MS spreads any tonal differences between the mics across the stereo image, rather than one side only. Also, the soundstage is not huge - one main vocalist with two others standing behind him, forming a triangle. So most of the direct sound will be in the M channel, with the S channel mostly capturing the hall reverberation. There'll also be some reverberation picked up by the rear of the M microphone, of course, due to its bidirectional response. Coming from the rear, rather than the sides, means the reverberation in the M channel will be nicely decorrelated from the direct sound (assuming the mic is a good distance from the rear wall!) and ought to sound fine when summed to mono for radio broadcast (a lot of broadcasters in this part of the world are still using mono, especially national shortwave stations).

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:24 am

While I generally don't advise LDCs for choral, orchestral or concert band (although concert bands fare far better from LDCs than the others...) I can whole heartedly recommend the Shure KSM line as well as the AT 4040/4050. They're both great mics for the price and work well in a myriad of situations.

Also consider the Blue Bluebird. This one has a bit more bite than any of the mics I've mentioned so far, but it's a good sounding mic with great off-axis response (so critical in this type of work).

It's damn cheap too for what you get. If I had heard and used this mic first, then someone told me it cost $900, I'd still have dropped the cash.

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:35 am

Cucco wrote:

While I generally don't advise LDCs for choral, orchestral or concert band (although concert bands fare far better from LDCs than the others...)

Hmmm... I'm curious as to why you say this. Please elaborate. I guess I was under the impression that LDC's are the best to use (as opposed to medium or small DC).

I've taken into consideration the AT 4000 line of mics. They are reasonably priced (mostly in the used market... though I hate buying used mics). The 3035 looks good too.

Thanks!

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:25 am

SDC's by nature exhibit a faster transient response, as well as better stereo imaging and capturing of low frequencies.

LDC's are slower to respond, due to the added mass of the capsule, comparatively speaking, and have a tendency to color sound more so than an SDC.

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:45 am

In addition to what Bent stated -
Because of the larger surface area of LDCs, there is a greater potential for non-linearity (both caused by tolerances in material and breakup due to high or conflicting SPLs) and the smaller the diaphragm, generally the better off-axis response.

This is why you will rarely if ever see any major orchestra recorded with LDCs (there are exceptions, but fewer than you might think. I think the Neumann Solution D was probably the most commonly used LDC over the past few years due in part to Neumann's aggressive marketing of the technology.) The M50, which looks like an LDC, is definitely not an LDC but is without a doubt, one of history's (and present, but not as much currently) most popular mics for this task.

Currently, the most common mics for this task are SDC mics from:
Sennheiser (MKH line)
Schoeps (Collette)
DPA (40xx)
Gefell
Earthworks

The only real disadvantage to a SDC is a potentially higher noise floor (though WELL under the capabilities of most playback systems) due to the laws of physics and the smashing together of air molecules.

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:03 am

Ardroth wrote:

I guess I was under the impression that LDC's are the best to use (as opposed to medium or small DC).

When choosing microphones for this kind of work, you need to find the right balance between two virtues: 1) low self-noise, and 2) good off-axis response.

As the diaphragm gets larger it is capable of collecting more sound energy and therefore has lower self-noise - i.e. the microphone is quieter. But the larger diaphragm (and the housing around it) creates a larger obstacle to sounds arriving off-axis, resulting in poorer off-axis response. The result is a coloured sound. LDCs are fine for close-miking, but not so good when you're miking from a distance and need to capture all sounds cleanly.

As the diaphragm gets smaller it becomes less of an obstacle and so the off-axis response improves, resulting in a more natural sound when miking from a distance. The downside is that there is less surface area to collect sound energy, resulting in higher self-noise.

SDCs from 10mm to 15mm or so generally provide the best compromise between good off-axis response and low self-noise. Hence they are very popular with people who record acoustic music.

To give two examples from DPA's stable: their 4060 series of omnis use 5.4mm diaphragms and have a textbook omnidirectional response, but their self-noise is 23dBA or thereabouts. At the other extreme, their 4041 omni has a 24mm diaphragm and offers a self-noise of only 7dBA, but it's off-axis response deviates considerably from omnidirectional, especially at higher frequencies.

Horses for courses. If low noise is a priority, there are few mics that can come close to DPA's 4041. But if excellent off-axis response is a priority, it's hard to beat their 4060 series.

Most DPA owners have the models with the 16mm diaphragms, such as the 4006 or similar, which offer a good compromise between off-axis response and self-noise.

I hope that's helpful...

[This edit was added after discovering that Jeremy had posted something similar while I was writing this. Sorry for doubling up...]

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:16 am

Simmosonic wrote:

This edit was added after discovering that Jeremy had posted something similar while I was writing this. Sorry for doubling up...

Yes, but you did it so much more eloquently.

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:21 am

The staph made me do it...

[see recent post under 'Recording Orchestras' for clarification...]

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