live sound micing question

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:06 am

I'm faced with the time old question SM57's i have 3 of them i need 5 more is forking out 500 dollars or trying to negotiate price with guitar center the only option i have?

what have other people done when looking for a large quantity of good high impact microphones used mainly for live performance recording?

also my application is for big band jazz music. this includes a 15 piece horn section which i have two paired SM81's for .i need three solo mics in the section which i was intending the 57's for. I have two more 57's on the guitar and bass amp. Two more 57's for the grand piano. A Beta52A on the kick drum an sm57 catching the snare and high hat, And a AKG perception 200 as the overhead for the rides and toms which works really well if placed correctly.

Definitely open to any criticism etc.

thanks
Aaron

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:37 am

Audio-Technica ATM25's, which are no longer made, can be found on e-Bay for about $100 each or less, make a great horn mic. So do Audix i5's (good on snare, too). For a decent, rugged mic you're going to have to pop $100 each or more.

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:56 am

Good luck finding an ATM25 for 100 dollars try around 175-200. Can I hear exact Re-Issue from Audio Technica???? Does anybody remeber hoe much the ATM25 was new?

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:33 am

In the past 6 months, I've bought (2) ATM25's to add to my live rig ( I now have 5). I paid $85 and $110 each. They were "street-priced" at $180 new. I just bought an ATM250 from Full Rumpass on special last month for $120.00 ( +/- $5). I had heard that it didn't sound as good as the original, but I have no complaints about it. It IS a bit different-maybe a tad brighter and more output. You don't hear me complaining, I still think that they're a great horn and drum mic...

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:35 am

Wow, where did you get them so cheap?

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:17 pm

haha ya i was about to ask the same question i just found that msrp at the time was 275.00...

also for those of you who have tested this mic please compare to an sm57...

more importantly does it have that punchy in your face sound like sm57s do or does it create a more mellow balanced sound?

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:10 pm

E-Bay, mon frer...check it out, there's an ATM25 sitting at $102.50 as I speak. They are going up due to demand, but they're not untouchable.
Shop around; a lot of dealers will deal in these slow times, with clearances and such. Anyway, the ATM25 has more low end definition and punch for horns than a 57. I find the 57 to be OK for that, but they can be a bit strident on brass. Another good horn mic for around $100 is the Audix i5. It's top end is not as "peaky" as a 57's, but it is more extended and a bit smoother.
Instead of more 57's, you might mix things up a bit and try a pair of i5's for the altos and an ATM25 on the tenor/bari's. The world is too beautiful than to use a single paintbrush...

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:26 pm

haha i like that...
my big thing is i've found using my sm81s as over head for the band i get a very good blended sounded and then i do isolation work on Logic to get the right highs and lows. It doesn't add any processed feeling if done right.

The reason i do this is because i record a lot of high school jazz bands that aren't exactly top notch and when you isolate individual musicians out who aren't spot on recording musicians you get a very muddy cluttered sound no matter how talented a mixer you are.

But i fully agree when i do live combos and what not only using one type of mic ignores sooooo many untapped frequencies its like asking half the band to not play and hope for the same sound.

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:59 am

One of my clients is the entertainment director for the local Ritz-Carlton. I get calls to do big bands for weddings and paties. I love 'em. I get to pull out the mics I used to use when I had a studio here, and have a ball.
I can understand why you like to use a pair of 81's, I like mine as OH's and on strings. In your situation, too many mics will add to the phase issues you will need to address, which is why you end up with the "mud".
On big band drummers, I'll put a single SM81 or NT-5 over them, a 421 on the kick, and MAYBE a 57 or i5 on the snare. Many of these guys don't need a snare mic, they really lay into the drum, so the OH is fine. Anyway, I think that you should try to get at least ONE ATM25 if you have ANY instrument with some low-end balls to it. It's like a "poor man's 421",
except it won't get funky sounding if it gets dropped one too many times!

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:22 am

I LOVE my 57's and 58's, and they have their place. But regardless of the talent level of the bands you're doing, you should keep in mind that a variety of mics - tailored to do the jobs they do - will suit you better in the long run.

Yes, you can do an entire band with nothing more than 57s & 58's. (I did it for three summer seasons back in the 70s' on a live festival system and it sounded great, and I learned a LOT). But as you go, getting the AT mics, a couple of other budget condensers (that won't break the bank and will be rugged enough for live use, over and over again), and some other odds'n'ends will be good for your overall approach.

Consider a few DI boxes too - bass, keyboards, even a guitar pedal rig or two (if you need more than mic'ing the amp), these can be cheap ones for now, or more expensive as you go. The Countryman DI box is the industry standard, perhaps you can pick one or two up each time you do a new gig, and pay for it out of some of the proceeds.

Ebay is a great source for orphaned mics that people bought but now don't need; many times there's nothing wrong with them other than the owner got bored with 'em. Don't shy away from a used mic if it will do the job for you, or at least let you try out a mic or two that you can't afford new.

Keep an eye out for some sennheiser 451's, and other dynamic mics from EV and AKG too. It's nice to have a mixed bag of mics in your arsenal.

As you already know, you don't need the latest and greatest stuff to capture a great performance. Thumbs Up

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:51 pm

ya in the long run i would love to have a great variety of mics to choose from so i never feel like i have to settle for second best.

I don't think i pointed it out but when i said i needed the extra sm57s i was intending their use for solos i.e. they would be off until a solo in the band came up and then i wold turn it on then back off at the end of the solo. i think the ATM25 would sound superb with this. I was also looking for those 451's i was loving the specs on em.

thanks for all your help =]

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:16 pm

Another good horn mic is the venerable E-V RE-16. They have been around for ages, and while a new one isn't cheap, used ones can be found for peanuts. Check broadcasters and churches for auctions, pawnshops, etc.

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:40 pm

Another question...

anybody played around with sennheiser MD421II?

more specifically for piano micing?

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:24 am

Well, I've owned many a 421, not used on piano. Better on brass. Leave the sm81s for piano-they're much better on that than as horn mics, 421 good on brass...

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