Yet Another Preamp Suggestion Request...

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:47 am

Thanks guys for your suggestions!

Yes, the GS3 and the 184s have served me well and enabled me to get a cd out and the next one is nearly done. And I love discussing the nuances of recording acoustic guitar. There were times, though, when I found myself in a dark pit of despair until I learned to quell the hell of phase cancellation and to appreciate the Zen-like calm of DIY acoustic treatment.

Yes, these days, I'm strictly acoustic guitar and vox which is a reason why I feel the GS3 is a tad under utilised! Most of the pots on it have never been touched and the mutes have never been automated. And, frankly, ergonomically its a bit a of a lump on its dedicated table with incorporated 19" rack bay to the side with nothin' in it any more. It was fun when I had local folkies coming round and doing demos and the odd cd. These days, it's beginning to irritate me. It's clean as a whistle, though, being covered when not in use. So, sonics is not the only thing on my mind. I'm also conscious that whatever I can obtain for it via ebay may contribute to any preamp under consideration.

Now, I'm also minded to think about the future (and not go round the gear buying loop you rightly cautioned me against) and buy a preamp now with future mics in mind. I that regard, I'm would like to get a figure-8 and do some mid-side. So I guess it's all up for grabs.

Re. the GS3 routing - I'll try your suggestions - I've simply been using the normal outs at the top of the desk into the back of the Multiface. I never thought about the insert sends.

Italy is a fantastic country and my son's so pleased to get away from the north-east of Scotland where we're expecting snow and storms (on different days!) next week. He's sloping around in a t-shirt and doing all sorts al fresco. Great stuff!

Thanks again for your ideas - and time taken.

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:02 pm

IainDearg wrote:

...I love discussing the nuances of recording acoustic guitar.

It is no secret around here that the sound captured and produced by the microphone itself is a far more significant contributor to the recorded result than the effect of the preamp or AD converter (assuming everything is reasonably well-designed and working correctly). That sound is determined by two things: the choice of microphone, and its position relative to the instrument and space around it.

Personally, I think the KM184 is quite a good choice for recording acoustic guitar - especially if you're after a very clean and detailed sound captured from a reasonable distance. There are better mics out there, but there are a whole lot more worse mics as well.

With that in mind, maybe we can push the microphone part of the process along a bit further? What mic techniques are you using to record your guitars? Close or distant? Overdubbed/multitracked mono? Direct-to-stereo? A combination of both?

IainDearg wrote:

In that regard, I would like to get a figure-8 and do some mid-side. So I guess it's all up for grabs.

That sounds like a good idea. I'd suggest trying a KM120 along with one of your KM184s for MS because the tonalities will be similar, resulting in a smoother tonal balance across the stereo image. Some might disagree with that, however. I don't think I'd like that combo for close-miking (e.g. 30cm or less), but okay for larger distances.

If I recall correctly, Mr Spearritt has a pair of KM120s and likes them very much [please correct me if I'm wrong, Mr S, I don't want to put words in your mouse], as does another acquaintance. The latter actually bought a pair to use in Blumlein for recording singing 'in the round' in circular mud huts somewhere on the plains of Africa, but he got married instead and is about to become someone's dad. So he's out of Africa, for now.

Which reminds me... Pioneering field recordist and musical tourist, David Lewiston, uses an MS rig consisting of a Neumann KM84 (the earlier model, arguably sweeter and not as bright as the KM184) coupled with a Sennheiser MKH30. Maybe worth a go?

IainDearg wrote:

And, frankly, ergonomically its a bit a of a lump on its dedicated table with incorporated 19" rack bay to the side with nothin' in it any more. It was fun when I had local folkies coming round and doing demos and the odd cd. These days, it's beginning to irritate me.

I must admit to similar feelings. My inner Zen Monk shakes his head at such inappropriateness. Knowing how much I despise seeing muppets masquerading as aliens in sci-fi movies, he pokes me in the ribs, adopts a Yoda voice and quips "Killing fly with hammer, we are?".

Smug bastard...

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:43 pm

+1 KM's on acoustic guitfiddles.
Thumbs Up

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:42 am

There is only one guitar on my recordings. Vox is overdubbed. I use X/Y setup exclusively for the guitar. The mics are horizontal (neither pointing up or down) 18" from the guitar with the centre axis pointing at the neck/body joint.

(Several consecutive takes allows me to cure the occasional ( Smile

) fluff in the part editor in Cubase Studio 4 )

Any spaced technique made my guitar sound as if it was 25' wide when listened to through monitors. My guitar's about 3' wide, as it happens. Also phase issues made it sound wishy-washy. All-in-all, a nausea inducing experience.

In short, X/Y makes my guitar sound like a real guitar under normal listening conditions. However the image sounds a bit tight if auditioned with 'phones. An iTunes customer, for example, might find it uninvolving in her iPod. So I cheat a little bit by adding some width with my favourite plugin (Voxengo's Soniformer) which uses a mid-side algorithm. This all gives me something that translates well to hi-fis, boom boxes, car stereos and mp3 players. It's also a strategy that passed muster with the mastering engineer last time around.

These figure-8 mics you mentioned are very tempting indeed! I've got some thinking to do. If it were probable that I'd get a better return from a new mic than a preamp, then I think that would be the logical path to take, particularly since the GS3 desk remains eminently servicable for my application, albeit as a "hammer" to my "fly".

Great input - thanks!

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:56 pm

Not to change the thread too much but, what would be regarded as a step up from KM184 for a SDC for nylon and steel acoustic guitar? This forum does not rate the 184 highly.

Does the AKG C451B cut it? Or do I have to go to Schoeps, Earthworks or DPA?

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:26 pm

I will be posting a clip of the Mojave MA-100 on acoustic guitar (Taylor) in a few minutes.

I think you'll agree, this is one serious sounding pair of mics on acoustic guitar. I would strongly urge anyone to consider these. They are quickly becoming one of my favorite pairs of mics.

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:49 pm

As promised -
http://www.sublymerecords.com/Phil/Longest.mp3

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:52 pm

Cucco wrote:

As promised -
http://www.sublymerecords.com/Phil/Longest.mp3

Placement and tracking details? What did you use on vocals?

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:18 pm

I'll have pictures too -
Placement -
AB spaced carioids
1 - spaced about 4 inches from the deck towards the tail aimed up to the sound hole
2 - spaced about 4 inches from the neck aimed down towards the 12th fret.

Vocal mic - Combination of Royer SF12 (only top part though) and Bluebird. Both at exact same distance from singer. Royer used to bring a little more bottom to the sound of the singer - not brought up fully in the mix.

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:35 pm

Okay...so my "4 inches" is off a little. (Insert dirty joke here...)

Here's a few pics.

I used the Royer on the guitar as well, but not in the recording you hear here. In fact, while I normally love the Royer, on the Taylor it was just too dark.

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:36 pm

Note-
The distance perspective in the photos is way off.

I was using a macro lens and was up close. The microphone and shadow in the final pic should give an indicator as to real distances.

The Royer was a good 18" back.

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:46 pm

Why isnt this recording QUANTIZED???? Dont you know ANYTHING?????

pm me the price on a pair of those.....I need a new pair od SDC's and I own a Taylor....Plus I record two different Gibson Songwriters and a Martin D28. Then theres the Greg Deering Banjo....and the mandolin.....

I assume(err.....ass-u-me) that this is the Millenia Pres????No?

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:51 pm

Haha

Cool pics monkey.. Er, I mean Jeremy!

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:57 pm

Davedog wrote:

pm me the price on a pair of those.....I need a new pair od SDC's and I own a Taylor....Plus I record two different Gibson Songwriters and a Martin D28. Then theres the Greg Deering Banjo....and the mandolin.....

I assume(err.....ass-u-me) that this is the Millenia Pres????No?

Done dude!

Yes, those were the Millennias.

However, I've done some other projects using the Aphex 107, Grace 201 and built in pres on both TC and RME boxes and not been disappointed in the slightest.

I'm doing a WW quintet tomorrow with the MA100s and the Korg MR-1000 (using the internal pres.)

This one's not likely to get posted since I'm also the player and the acoustics in the room (the clarinetist's basement) suck.

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:16 pm

Very nice track!

Kudos!

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