Help Digitizing Cassettes (Phase Reveresed)

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:00 am

[quote]question: will using XLR from cassette to soundcard yield better results for digitizing rather then RCA?
[/quote]

Yeah

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:39 am

^^ Thanks for the confirmation Basilbowman. and there I was using RCA the whole time, not knowing that XLR would give a better signal for digitizing cassettes. I suppose all the crap printed on the internet is misleading telling people to digitize with RCA, but if your card or cassette deck dosent have XLR ports then I suppose youve no choice
I better buy the breakout cable for my soundcard that has XLR ports, that way I'll get the best volume and signal from these cassettes

bent wrote:

It's probably a dirty contact on the tape-selector switch inside the door of the player.

I just cleaned the switches with some alcohol, thanks

Do your tapes have an extra bit of gap next to the record protect knock outs on top?

no the gap seems the same as all my other tapes, although its completely flat all the way across the rest of the top unlike my other cassettes that have some grooves in the middle. maybe i could fill the record knockouts with paper? might select properly then?

If you use the XLR outs that I recommended, select +4 on your soundcard - and thank Boswell for catching that faux pas on my part.

Ill purchase the breakout cable for my soundcard, and digitize everything via XLR from now on. I know thanks Boswell you're a legend in your own lunchtime

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:43 am

Just remember to flip phase on one side if you're going to use standard XLR cables, otherwise you're no better off than when you started.

Nathan

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:03 pm

westy wrote:

Kev wrote:

what sort of program material is this ?

Hip Hop from 1993-1994

mmmm

gut feeling tells me that this is probably not an MS recording

get another cassette deck for a test

get a real test cassette to check the deck you have
these test tones can then be transfered to the DAW
allowing you to check frequency and phase (and polarity)
and levels for both the XLR and RCA outputs

if you don't have equipment
zoom in on the wave form to see the alignment of the start of the tone and the polarity etc
there may be a plug-in to show actual frequency of the tones
the DAW level meters should give a good representation of the levels of the tones
might also give you a chance to check wow and flutter

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:17 pm

[quote="Kev"]

westy wrote:

Kev wrote:

what sort of program material is this ?

Hip Hop from 1993-1994
mmmm
Rolling Eyes

Appreciate your input, but a roll of eyes at a legendary hiphop artist who died over 12 years ago and left behind a lifetime of work in the short space of 4 years is not to be sniffed at.

Kev wrote:

get a real test cassette to check the deck you have
these test tones can then be transfered to the DAW
allowing you to check frequency and phase (and polarity)
and levels for both the XLR and RCA outputs

would this suffice? and to also use to adjust the azimuth of my deck if needs be?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150216868410&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005

Kev wrote:

[if you don't have equipment
zoom in on the wave form to see the alignment of the start of the tone and the polarity etc
there may be a plug-in to show actual frequency of the tones
the DAW level meters should give a good representation of the levels of the tones
might also give you a chance to check wow and flutter

many thanks, more great advice

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:05 am

the roll of the eyes wasn't because hip hop didn't require proper treatment for archiving
BUT
it is very likely that MS was NOT the chosen method of recording

if it were acoustic or classical or even some jazz then an MS was very possible

a POP or heavy metal record would also be very unlikely for an MS thang

if one is serious about archival then a spec'd up cassette deck is a must
I have even been known to use a spare cassette deck and deliberately trim it to suit the cassette tape presented
IF the tape was made on a deck that was out of alignment then a correct trim is not what you need

this is just guess work and you trim to get the best sound you can
mostly looking for a good smooth top end and hope the low end stays in tact

once the left and right are in the DAW you can bump and trim one side for a tight centre and then hope the stereo spread still holds true

hope that makes sense
sometimes you just have to use any trick you can

if more cassette archive work is in your future then a couple Audio Cassette Alignment Test Tapes will be useful

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:03 am

I think we've come full circle in this discussion, and have established a few important things now:

1. The Tape deck has balanced In/Out connectors. These are XLR, not TRS, so using of a pair of XLR cables to the RME interface/breakout fantail you show is indeed do-able, downright recommended.

2. The "Phase" problem is most likely inverted material on one channel vs. the other. So, assuming the azimuth is "in the ballpark", things should be ok, at least to get you started.

3. You'll get better results working with professional (+4) levels with the XLR i/o's than you would with the RCA (-10) connections.

Sooooo......you can either fix this problem on the fly - as you transfer - with ONE of the connectors in ONE of your XLR cables phase-reversed,

OR

You can fix it after the fact, by recording each channel as Mono tracks, and reversing the phase digitally, with your software. BOOM! then you're done that part of the process, and then can get down to the biz of TRULY cleaning up and restoring the tapes.

If you have any problems with the terminology, take a moment, crack a book, or go to Wikipedia and look 'em up. You should be conversant with these terms and understand them if you're going to do a proper job with these allegedy important tapes. (ESPECIALLY if you're helping to save someone's legacy!)

You should learn and understand these concepts to do the best job possible for this project:

Balanced vs. Unbalanced (and their related connectors: TRS, XLR, Pin (RCA) and so on.
Professional (elevated) +4 levels vs. consumer -10 levels.
Tape Path Cleaning & Demagetization.
Tape & Head Repro Alignment. (Azimuth, Zenith and Wrap)
Cassette Deck anamolies and pitfalls.

After you've got it all sorted out, you may find the tape is still in it's own world, alignment wise, and you may STILL have to tweak the azimuth a bit to get the best overall high frequency playback (and stereo alignment.) (Welcome to the fuzzy old world of analog tape tech service!) You can never assume the deck used to make the tapes was ever aligned or set up properly. The catch-phrase for cassette alignment standards was: "This IS NO STANDARD." Every deck I ever worked with - including the Tascam series - was FUBAR, alignment wise. You just hoped for the best, but expect the worst.

But that's another topic, for another thread.

I applaud your efforts to learn and DIY, but if these tapes are as important as you say, you may be better off taking them to a professional transfer facility, and having them do it for you - perhaps even while you watch or observe.

Good luck with the project, and have fun, regardless.

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:47 pm

excellent post Joe

I'll get out of the way now cos I think Joe covered all of it in a balanced way
Smile

pun intended

I'd forgotten about the " Tape Path Cleaning & Demagetization "
just goes to show how long it's been since my brain was in tape mode.

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:23 pm

big thanks to basilbowman, kev & Joe, excellent advice
i have demagged and cleaned the deck in preparation. i also purchased the RME Breakout & xlr leads with a phase reverse adapter from thoman yesterday, so they should be here soon. I want to do this myself as sending 20 + cassettes to get professionally done will cost alot and i feel i can achieve the same results with the equipment i own (with a little help) I will adjust the azimuth screw on the head to get best alignment possible, and have purchased one of those test tapes in preparation. I heard listening in mono would be best, what would I be listening for to know im finally near the correct azimuth? less hiss & snare portions perhaps?

Question : can one achieve professional (+4) levels with vinyl also?

Also does anyone have some good tips for cleanup and compression to really enhance them, what would be the best programme to use? I am pretty skilled with cool edit and have recently got wavearts and iZotope RX which i still need to master, but if anyone has correct settings or suggestions i would be very grateful and again thank you this is a wonderful forum with great members Very Happy

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:42 am

vinyl ??

you have a similar issue with some vinyl recording that you want to archive ?

you will need a quality record player
good in tact needle and an RIAA EQ amp

in short this just means a normal record player but with the addition of an amplifier to bring the needle levels up to line level

there are some pro units that give balanced at +4dBu

there are some USB computer sound devices that offer the record player input

otherwise there are some dedicated record play input RIAA EQ amp with balanced +4dBu output

not sure what would be appropriate for you and your budget

as for clean up
generally I would not do any mods for the first archive
but
if you want some post clean-up versions then that's fine
IF you get better software and skills you can always revisit the original archive (digitised)

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:34 pm

^^ thanks for that kev, Ive no problem with the vinyls phase, just wondering would XLR give me better results as opposed to RCA, I have a good Turntable and phono premap but its just got RCA in and out on both ends. do turntables come with XLR Outs? or would i just use regular RCA out from turntable into a phono pre-amp with XLR outs and that would give me professional +4dBu output? as for the cleanup process I would never touch the original files and always duplicate to cleanup and burn to cd, i have them hiss free etc but haven't been really able to give them compression to achieve that professional sound.

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:50 pm

Good job on getting the RME, Westy.

But let's take care of one thing at a time, ok? Wink

Get your chops going with the cassette transfer, and see where you stand. You're going to learn a lot and have fun in the process.

As for the vinyl; a couple of things for when you DO get into it, although KEV has pretty much nailed it for you.

The general rule for vinyl transfer is this: if the material is commerically available elsewhere - CD remaster, etc., then it's not worth wasting your time doing on your own. If, on the other hand, you have some real need to transfer someone's private, old, or out of print vinyl collection of non-public stuf, then sure, go for it.

It's rare, though, that people ever archive their material on vinyl alone; most would at least have a reel to reel master somewhere, or even a cassette. Still, if vinyl is all you have, then you've got some work to do, as KEV has already pointed out.

From what you're asking, I suspect you still don't quite get it regarding RCA outs vs. XLR. That's not the point here. Yes, chances are you'll see RCA outputs coming from the turntable (the signal coming off a phono cartride is in microvolts, VERY Low level stuff - it has to go to a preamp first, with proper EQ). You'll also see a green "Ground" wire. You'll need to connect this to your phono preamp chassis.

If you're serious about vinyl transfer someday, then you'll need a professional Phono Preamp. In addition to the RCA inputs and ground wire lug nut, it will have balanced level outputs, perhaps a pin block, or an XLR, or even 1/4" inch TRS outs. (Although it DOES sound like you could get by with what you already have, if it's quiet enough, and you can get enough signal out of it. )

It also SHOULD have various EQ settings for various RAIA curves, from 78 RPM to 33 1/3 to 45 RPM. (Yes, there were different EQ curves for different types of vinyl recordings, depending on their use.) You can of course try to dial this in after the fact, there are some software programs that will give you these curves, or you can reproduce them from a little research on the web and Wikipedia.

Kev also mentioned proper needles - to do it right, you'll need a different stylus for 78 than you would for 33 1/3, and so on. It's not something to be taken lightly, if you're going to do it properly. (This is a whole nother thread: Conical needles vs. truncated, etc. etc.)

Once you've picked your turntable, cartridge, needles and preamps, set your levels properly and made the transfers, then you'll work on tick and pop removal, overall cleanup, etc. in the digital domain. (Personally, I would NEVER do any after the fact compression or limiting, unless it was to fix some kind of specific problem.)

Remember that vinyl recordings were mastered by expert engineers who were working in that field specifically, and the main reason vinyl recordings sound the way they do is because they were made to fit into the sonic & physical constraints of the media. Taking the recording out of that domain - by using the vinyl copy vs. a further-back tape copy, etc., you are working with a flawed, later-generation medium. It can sound OK, even great, in the right hands, with a good copy to work from, but remember what you're dealing with, and don't try to re-engineer it, should you get that far. It will NEVER sound as good as the original master tape.

Again, I'd stick with your cassette project first and see what happens. Who knows? You may find a niche career here.....

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:55 pm

Once again Thanks Guys.
These vinyls are all 45rpm mainly 90s stuff good quality. they contain exclusive instrumentals and B-sides that were never or will never be released on cd so they're a must for me to transfer.

I have a Hagerman Bugle phono preamp with RCA IN/OUTS and a Technics SL1210MK5 TT with RCA Outs. this is a good marriage and the sound quality is excellent with ORTOFON cartridge etc. In terms of buying a professional phono preamp I would love one but couldn't afford the price tag. So

Question: could I use my Tascam cassette deck to act as an Amp and connect my phono pre to its RCA input and use the XLR outs into my soundcard, giving me professional (+4) levels? and I could adjust the gain?

I will definitely stick with my cassette project for the moment and Im dying to get my teeth into it, I feel I am capable of achieving good results with the the equipment ive acquired and the knowledge ive learned from this thread in particular. But while I have the thread open I just thought id ask some advice on my vinyl collection that ive been putting on the long finger since forever. Thanks Men

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:42 pm

sorry to bring this thread up but I am just in the process of ripping that particular out of phase cassette. I am using balanced outputs into balanced inputs of My ADC with only one cable phase reversed, when sumed to mono its a huge difference but it still seems to lack volume on one channel
heres a photo of the wave form as you can see one of the channels is smaller

I stupidly only bought one phase inverter on my order from thoman, do you think using another one will increase the volume in the other channel?
any help welcome thanks guys

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:41 pm

Which channel is the one that's quieter, the one that's coming in reversed or the one that's coming in straight?

This topic sponsored by: