hands-free mixing

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:10 am

Hi there,

This is my first post to this forum.

I'm playing the flute and usually use a simple setting: a Sennheiser mic right into an AER cube.

However, I would like to experiment with putting several mics in different places on my instrument and mixing them live while I'm playing. I might also use a looper and a few effects.

As my hands are on my flute, I'll have to find a way to control volumes without them. One obvious (?) solution seems to buy a simple mixing console with built-in preamps (something like the mackie DFX-6), buy one volume pedal per channel I have to control, and use the inserts.

Is this the best solution? any other idea? anybody knows of something like a foot-controlled mixing console?

Thanks for your help,

flutemix

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:54 am

Very interesting topic.

I would not recommend using a passive volume control pedal as an insert device. This is because most insert return paths assume an active drive, such as the output of most outboard gear. If you connect a passive volume control (potentiometer) to a mixer insert, its effective output resistance varies from zero at the ends to a quarter of the rated end-to-end resistance at the middle setting. Most insert returns are not buffered and will not give good results with a variable source resistance.

An active volume control pedal is much more of a possibility, but you would have to find one that could deal with the typical signal levels at insert jacks (+18dBu) without sonic degradation. This might be a tall order.

The other approach is to consider the possibilities of indirect control, that is, the pedal outputs a signal that is used to control the amplitude of the main signal in a different process. The thing that comes to mind here is the side chain on a compressor, but apart from being the wrong way up (more output would reduce the amplitude of the main signal), you may not get enough amplitude control range.

I have used the built-in oscillator in a Yamaha 01V96 output via an omni out to a remote potentiometer in this sort of way, but in that particular application I needed only trims and not the full amplitude control range.

Those are my first thoughts, but I'll think about this some more, as it's an interesting problem.

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:04 am

don't you have a friend or someone who could take care of that mixing for you?? I think it'd be more efficient than using your feet...!!!

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:04 am

Boswell: thanks a lot for your answer. I don't know much about electronics, and not much more about sound engineering, so I would have missed the problems you mention.
I like the idea of indirect control. I even considered the possibility of a mechanic pedal that would actually move the fader on the console, but surely there must be a better solution?

Niclaus: what I have in mind is using the mixing as a kind of "sculpting" of my sound. It would be more like an extended way of playing my instrument than a traditional mixing question. So I don't think delegating to someone else would be a solution in my case.

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:10 am

ok, sorry, my bad...

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:01 am

I'm waiting on bent coming to show us all how to mix with your feet.

PS: multiple microphones -> potential of phase.

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:00 am

Which looper and which effects? Is each mic going to run through a different effect? Are any of them MIDI?

Maybe list your desired signal chain...such as:

Mic 1>Looper>board

Mic 2>Digital delay>board

Mic 3>Multieffects>board

Some MIDI effects can be controlled with something like a Behringer FCB1010 MIDI footboard. It's also "possible" to take an effects box and detach an internal volume/mix pot and rig up an external pot in a treadle of some sort. ("Possible" highlighted because of possible negative consequences of doing such a thing, if not done properly). Or, you may just be able to do something like those MXR pedals with the rubber cap that fit over a knob that allowed one to move a knob with their foot.

Kapt.Krunch

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:19 pm

We have a PS2 with camera - the games respond based on movements picked up by the camera. I could see something like that leading to an interesting dance while you control your effects with your body.
---
Strap a gyro-mouse to your flute so you can wave it around to control things on a computer. Maybe your feet take care of the mouse buttons.
---
Back on the video game theme - a dance mat ...
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hmmmm ....

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:36 pm

While you're doing this all-playing, all-dancing flute solo (it better be for your sake), why not stick a USB cable in your ear and telepathically activate the recording on the computer.

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:31 am

Kapt.Krunch: I'm not sure yet about the exact routing; I'd have to experiment a bit. A first approximation would be:
- every mic to mixing console, routed to main out and aux
- aux to looper and return
- add some reverb to the result
... and I'd like to control the levels of the mics and looper output with my feet.
No midi; my looper is a simple Boss RC-20, although this could change in the future.

Zemlin: I don't think the camera would be a option an stage. Too many light changes. Gyro-mouse, dance pad, ...? why not? I was hoping for a computer-free solution, but with a computer, some unconventional input devices and some tweaking, I guess I could make it work.

Codemonkey: I'm quite reluctant to stick a cable in my ear. Perhaps a blue tooth would be a better solution? I'll have to ask my dentist.

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:21 am

Being a little more serious ... does it need to be dynamic process, or would a bunch or presets work for you? Consider the A&H MixWizard 12M. 16 inputs - 12 individual mixes from those 16 inputs. Then make a pedal board with 12 SOLO buttons so you can pick your mix for the final output.

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:16 am

I was definitely thinking of a dynamic process, but I didn't think the problem was so complicated. If no convincing dynamic solution shows up, I will probably consider a preset-based one (although the MixWizard 12M seems quite big for what I need...)

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:45 am

flutemix wrote:

(although the MixWizard 12M seems quite big for what I need...)

I figured ... that was just the first monitor mixer that came to mind. There's a small headphone mixer around with 6 inputs and a few outs that might to the job for a lot less dough.

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:30 am

Just a silly question: if I wanted to control the volume of only one mic with a foot pedal, would it be easier?
What would be the proper setting?
mic -> pre-amp -> pedal -> amp?

I'm getting confused... There must be a proper use for volume pedals, right?

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:09 am

I've been thinking a bit more about this problem, and have come to the conclusion that it is not going to be easy to do it for a low cost using commercially-available gear.

I think you can choose one of two routes:

(1) Buffered analogue pedals connected to the mixer inserts. You would use conventional potentiometer pedals and then either (a) build the required number of channels of buffer amplifiers and feed the insert returns, or (b) take the potentiometer outputs and feed them to the line inputs of spare mixer channels. This latter option implies having twice as many channels on your mixer as microphones you need to control, with the first set being used only as pre-amps. These could, of course, be replaced by conventional external pre-amps.

(2) Use MIDI expression pedals and a MIDI-controllable mixer. I have struggled to find a MIDI foot control with more than one expression pedal, but it may be possible to use the combination type of multiple switch plus one pedal to choose dynamically which channel you were going to change with the pedal. I tried patching this up with my 01V96 mixer, and it works a treat, although it's a bit weird to see the faders moving solely under foot control. However, I doubt whether there are low-cost mixers available that give you MIDI control of channel parameters such as fader positions.

If cost is a major consideration, I think the first method is going to be the only viable option. You may want to consider a bank of external pre-amps from which you take an unbalanced output to feed your row of potentiometer pedals and then on into the line inputs of your mixer.

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