FINALLY!! The saga begins

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:12 am

MadMax wrote:

In speaking with the HVAC and Electrical contractors, they think that I may only need to stuff the gaps tight with mineral wool, and may not need the caulking. I'll call about that tomorrow morning for a ruling from the inspector's office. It's not that I mind doing the caulking... well.... actually I DO! But if I can save a pretty good chunk of cash by not having to caulk, I'm not gonna argue with the inspectors.

The fire saffing stops the spread of flames - but does nothing to stop the spread of hot gasses that can ignite something in the adjacent space - the fire caulk stops that.

One trick you can use with the caulking to make it easier is to take some duct tape - put in your rockwool - and leave an indentation - then place a piece of the tape in and catch the 2 sides of the wood - but leave a little wood exposed for the fire caulk to bond to - then place the caulk -

That will stop the fire saffing from coming out as you put the caulk on.

Rod

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:59 am

Rod,

WAY COOL tip! THANKS!!

I was afraid to do anything like that... seeing as, like you said, hot gasses might try to ignite the tape.

Then too, the caulk has such a high temp coefficient as does the mineral wool.

On the top side, I've begun using an improvised 3/4" putty knife made from a piece of trimmed off lumber. It seems to work fairly well. At least I can apply enough pressure to the caulk and mineral wool to get it to stick together pretty well.

Progress is still rather slow... but since the HVAC and electrical is not moving that fast either... I'd say it's an even race.

Although I may be getting a little behind them today... heading to the local urgent care... since I can't get an appointment with my primary care physician. Sumpin' ain't quite right... keep running out of steam and sugar bounces me back too easily... not good. So... gotta go get it checked out.

Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 8:13 am

The HVAC guys are here and having some serious fun with duct work!

The units themselves are set and they're moving on towards getting the supply ducts in! They expect to finish early next week... I HOPE so!

Here's a couple of pix of the mineral wool/fire caulk.

As you can see... this stuff is a royal pain to get to stick to the mineral wool from underneath. This stuff just HATES gravity.

There's 6 total receptacle's we're putting in that will have both clean and dirty power in them. 2 in the Control Room and 4 in the Tracking Room. This is one in the Control Room.

The rest are all clean power or dirty power.

Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 1:11 pm

Max,

Hey buddy - if one of the ways they saved you money was by insulating the duct instead of lining it - I can make no promises on how quiet your system is going to be.

You never mentioned that change to me.

I did not like what I saw when I noticed the duct insulation instead of duct liner.

Rod

Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 2:18 pm

Rod,

The understanding that I have with the contractor is that they're doing both a liner AND the insulation.

There's 3 unopened boxes of duct liner in the studio, so AFAIK, they will be assembling it as they go.

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 3:35 pm

OK... I got some egg on my face here...

Some sort of communication went awry.

The duct was somehow sent over before the lining was installed. The main installer has switched to another guy, so I guess somewhere along the path the liner got omitted, or miscommunicated.

My best guess is that the fab shop orders were a bit unusual in that we're doing BOTH the exterior insulation and the liner on such oversized duct.

I know Billy wasn't too happy about it when we talked to him this morning.

The guys took most of the duct back to the shop this morning, and are about 3/4 done with taking it apart and putting the liner in. They just picked up the rest of it and was informed that they should have it all installed and back here sometime midday Tuesday.

Rod, I want to thank you for catching this! I'm no HVAC expert, (obviously) and surely would not have caught it until it would have been an ugly mess to fix.

Max

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 4:26 pm

Max,

why are they throwing your money away?

I've worked on projects running close to a billion dollars - and either you install insulation (outside of the duct) OR you install duct liner - I have never seen both installed at the same time.

What is their reasoning for this?

It won't make the duct any quieter........ and the only place they needed to insulate was the one section where they should still be omiting the liner - which is where you might (one day) install the humidifier (one for each system of course - so really 3 places total at roughly 6' per location).

So please explain their reasoning to me - I really would like to understand if I am missing something here.

Sincerely,

Rod

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 10:46 pm

Rod,

OK, let me see if I can possibly get this put into the right perspective. If not, I'll see if if I can have the contractor call you and get things ironed out without me confusing the situation any more than what I have already.

It's my understanding, that as you said, there would be insulation on certain sections, and duct liner in the rest - thus both liner AND insulation. That's what was conveyed to me and I just relayed. I make no claim to be an expert in HVAC, nor will I ever be one. So, if I mis-speak or use an incorrect term, please understand that I'm evidently just an ignorant retard.

Again, I make no claim to know exactly everything that they have fabricated, and where and how it's all going together, but I don't think that they are throwing my money away purposely. I mean, you said the exact same thing yourself...

Quote:

and the only place they needed to insulate was the one section where they should still be omiting the liner - which is where you might (one day) install the humidifier (one for each system of course - so really 3 places total at roughly 6' per location).

So, you actually say the same thing I did... That they should be using both insulation AND liner.

The contractor has assured me that he IS going to put the system in as close to what you designed as is financially possible, and given the fact that we have had to relocate the units due to the loss of the space in the interstitial space above the control room.

I'm not ducking anything, but since I really don't have in-depth experience with HVAC, I know there are some things I just don't get. Call me a moron if you want, but with everything that's going into this building, I may not understand everything along the way. But one thing I DID understand was that there was to be a combination of insulation and liner. Where that dividing point is, I have to leave up to the contractor. At some point, I have to rely upon him to do his job, as he is supposed to be the expert. He's working with a set of plans and prints with spec's. Some of those details have changed due to other influences.

I have a great deal of confidence that the installation team will do the job right. I think that there was evidently a communication problem when the lead installer changed. What that problem was or how it came about, I don't know and I don't care... as long as the job is completed correctly.

You expressed your concerns. I relayed those concerns, they are addressing and complying to those issues. What else can I do?

Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:49 am

Max,

there are 2 location where I indicated that a 6' section of liner should be left out - and it is only those 2 areas that require the jacket insulation.

It should overlap the place where the liner ends by a foot to a foot and a 1/2.

It's that simples.

Anyuthing more than that is a waste of good money (yours in fact).

Sincerely,

Rod

Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 12:59 pm

Rod,

I understand. I'm all for not wasting a dime more than is absolutely unavoidable. As you pointed out... It IS my money, and I've spent FAR more than I had expected to. FAR more... and there's STILL a lot left to pay for!

So I'm not misunderstood... I realize that the two areas are to be treated different, but where those to locations have now moved to, I honestly don't know. They may very well be in the exact same location as the original drawings, but I doubt it. That's what I was referring to about the contractor knowing where all the duct it going.

The fire caulk is still going slow. I'm having some trouble dealing with the heat, so I haven't been able to get much done. I'm having to wait until the evening before attempting to get up there and spread the "peanut butter".

Looks like it's going to take 3-5 cases, as the stuff sure doesn't go very far.

Other than getting the caulk done, there's little else to do except wait on the HVAC and Electrical contractors to come in and do their work.

Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 4:35 am

The electrician was here today!

I spoke with him at length about what all he got done, the schedule he's going to try working to, etc.

He evidently got the meter base and dirty power panel set today. He also got all the cans set and wired in the lounge ceiling.

I need to get down to the studio today and get some pix!

He thinks he can get us ready for rough-in inspection on Monday of next week! WOO HOO!

If the HVAC installers make it here today, there's a chance we might be ready for HVAC the same day.

If I can possibly get the fire caulking done on the fire breaks in time, we might be able to get all 3 rough-in's inspected at the same time! Now THAT would be seriously sweet!

We're planning on putting the condenser units and the Isolation Transformer, for clean power, away from the building on the downslope side of the studio. The hill has a couple of level step areas cut into it.

The plan is to pour a 3'x12'x3" concrete pad. We'll put the transformer on the end closest to the service entrance, and the condenser units on the opposite end. That will put about 5 feet between the transformer and the closest condenser unit. I hope that will be enough space to prevent compressor transients from entering the transformer's secondary.

Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:11 am

Max,

That should be more than enough........

Rod

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:32 pm

OK... THIS is STOOPID!

REALLY stooopid!

The HVAC installers have been making pretty good progress, but it's still pretty slow... why? (Glad you asked!)

Because they're having to slow down and put the insulation on the exterior of the supply and return ducts!!

I was kinda' pissed off about it, so I asked them to have Billy call me or let me talk to him.

I found out why the external insulation is going on despite the request for just the liner... Evidently, our county inspectors have interpreted the code to the point that ALL METAL duct will be wrapped in a moisture proof insulation.... period, no exceptions, no arguments.

Something about condensation causing rust when ducts are in cooling mode in a non climate controlled space. It sounds like BS to me, but evidently its true. I called the inspectors office and asked. My inspector was not available, and should be calling me back in the morning. But the clerk asked one of the other inspectors, and he said that it was in fact true as far as he knew.

OK, I can somewhat justify the supply... sure... when it's 102F and the unit is cooling at 76F, it stands to reason... but having to wrap the returns when they're lined as well??? Come on... this is BS.

The installers said that they don't normally wrap any returns except in Alamance and Orange counties.

How in the heck do they justify this?

Now I'm beginning to understand why the costs are as high as they are... but still... this is something short of friggin' blackmail!

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 8:34 pm

It sure is stupid - I've never heard such a thing before.

Somewhere there should be a requirement that in order to be a building inspector you have to posess a brain.

Rod

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:38 am

I'm not gonna argue Rod...

Some how the interpretation is based upon 2 sections of state code dealing with condensation, and minimal thermal insulation of 2 inches.

I'll just quietly sit here and cuss... that's about all I know to do.

After talking with the electrical contractor, I'm doing the fire caulking for all of his top plate penetrations. That saves me having to pay his guys. So, there's a coupla' bucks saved.

The rest of the fire caulking is still slow... the heat is pretty brutal... but I WILL get it done... I don't have much choice, do I?

Quick question...

When is a good time to put in the control room glass?

I know it would be stoopid to do so before the framing inspection... but it seems like getting it in either first thing (before the MDF) or just about the last thing (after all the trim work) would be the two smart times to put it in.

Also... I've discovered that very few of the glass companies around here will deal with 1" glass unless it's the bulletproof stuff. Any suggestions for a vendor or locating a manufacturer who can get me a local vendor?

I'll try to get updated pix up this evening.

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