FINALLY!! The saga begins

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:12 pm

Uhhh... Houston, we have a problem...

I added a 3rd layer of lead sheeting to the exterior metal door. All went well... until I went to close the door.

Seems that the door is now showing some sag.

I sunk a 5/8"x 6" lag bolt into the center of the door frame about 8" from the top. It only helped a little bit... a very little bit.

I double checked the hinges. It looks like the top two hinges are actually starting to pull loose from the jamb.

I would go ahead and replace them with something like a 3 or 4 inch wood screw, but my guess is that they would only hold at best a coupla of years.

I'm thinking about an honestly permanent fix... putting 1/8" threaded rods through the jamb all the way to the first stud. (That's about 12" of threaded rod.) I'd do that with the top two hinges. Then weld the threaded stock to the hinges and put a plate on the stud side. Then sock it all together nice and snug.

The thing that bothers me is that the original plans called for 1/8" of sheet lead... I'm still 1/32" less than THAT!

Whatever I do... I need to do it soon! I don't want to keep stressing the wood on those top two hinges anymore than I have to until I get em' fixed!

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 7:54 pm

Max,

you said:

Quote:

I would go ahead and replace them with something like a 3 or 4 inch wood screw, but my guess is that they would only hold at best a coupla of years.

What did you attach them with to begin with?

Rod

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:03 pm

This is fun to watch, but I think you are going way overboard.

I different approach to the lead door might be two doors. This is typical for soundproofing at therapists' offices.

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:34 pm

A tax guy, a therapist and double door soundproofing?

Works for me Wink

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:42 pm

"A tax guy, a therapist and double door soundproofing?" walk into a bar...

Oh wait, double door soundproofing isn't a person.

It's late.

A taxman, a therapist and Space walk into a soundproofed double door...
Emm, man on the inside says "oh hi, I didn't hear you come in"

*fail*

PS: Double door seems like a fair bit extra work at this stage?

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:00 am

Rod,

I used the standard 1.25" coarse thread screws that came with the hinges. They appear to be about a #12 or possibly a #10. The hinges are as specified; 4x Stanley 5"x5" EHD NRP Ball Bearing hinges.

I did pick up some 3" exterior wood rated #10 (coarse high helix) and 4" #12 exterior rated wood screws. I know I'm probably going to need to do at least a partial/temp fix. I've got HVAC and electrical contractors coming this morning, Monday, and all this week. As much as I want to come up with a permanent fix, these screws may have to work for a few days.

I talked to another studio owner who had a similar situation with a heavier door than this one. (Which the rest of mine will be too, right?) He said they drilled the hinge plates and added some smaller (3/8"x6" or 8"?) lag bolts.

Not sure how he added the lag bolts unless he drilled two holes for each lag... one for the bolt and one for the bolt head in the facing plate. This method worries me because it seems like it would decrease the structural integrity of the hinge plate.

If you think either of the two screws I purchased will work, let me know and I'll replace all of them. Until then, I'll only replace two screws in each of the top two hinges with the 3" high helix.

Codemonkey (et al)

I appreciate the attempts at humor... I really do. But the issue isn't as simple nor as light hearted you think... Not to be a killjoy here, but if one of these doors were to fall on anyone... someone, myself included, could be killed. So yeah, I might be over reacting a bit, but I have some anal building inspectors and insurance premiums to worry about.

Oh... and there ARE double doors at the entrance. If you go back to the framing images, or the floorplan, you'll see that there is a double wall at this loading door entrance. That airlock is essential to the design of the space. e.g. your doors and windows are THE weakest links in the isolation of each room. As much as I've spent (and have left to spend) I'd rather get this right the first time thank you. Going back in a year or two to reset or rehang these doors could be quite costly... and I'm the one who will foot the bill, so it's far cheaper to do it right the fist time.

The rest of the doors and jambs will be built a bit different than the exterior door.

If you look at Rod's book, you'll see the design for the "Super Door". There will be seven of these types of doors in this facility. All of them are at least as heavy, if not more so, than the entrance door. The solid core wood doors weigh slightly more than the steel door.

I'm wondering if it would be wise to set the hinges in the rest of the door jambs with a through bolt and plate method on the rest of the doors. Then, when the door/jamb assembly goes up/in, the hinges would be permanently set. Or do you think something like a 4" long #12 will handle the weight?

I hope we can figure out the construction method here pretty quick. I'd like to set the rest of the doors as soon as I can after the rough-in inspections if it would involve using a through bolt and plate method that would attach them to the studs.

Thanx!
Max

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:09 am

taxman wrote:

This is fun to watch, but I think you are going way overboard.

I different approach to the lead door might be two doors. This is typical for soundproofing at therapists' offices.

And the 2 would equate how?

What in the world makes you think than anything adequate for people would be adequate for, say a 4 piece Metal band putting out somewhere between 120 to 130 dB???????

BTW - for what it's worth - here in the states (I am assuming based on your statement that you are not from here) there are very few situations you can do double doors back to back - a therapist's office would be a case where it simply was not allowed.

It's a violation of the ADA (American's with Disabilities Act).

Rod

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:30 am

Inspectors...bah. I live in fear of the day an electrical inspector comes to our Church.

I wasn't aware of the double door already being there and was thinking that adding a second door while having most of the building up would be costly and complicated.

And can I just state, for legal reasons, that I in no way endorse the effects likely to arise from unforseen changes in the vertical state of the doors.

Would it be too much to add, say, a steel frame around the door, or would that violate some building codes or cause acoustic problems?

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:30 pm

Code,

the ADA does not apply to Churches - so you would be safe there anyway (Freedom of religion and all that) -

Quote:

I wasn't aware of the double door already being there and was thinking that adding a second door while having most of the building up would be costly and complicated.

It wasn't always there - but neither was te inner wall.

It was all part of the ooriginal design.

Quote:

Would it be too much to add, say, a steel frame around the door, or would that violate some building codes or cause acoustic problems?

There is no need to - the fasteners should be 3 1/2 to 4" in length - replace ALL of them (even on the solid core wood doors) and the door will be fine.

As I said - over 10 years now and no problems at Power Station.

Rod

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:17 pm

OK, I replaced the std 1.25" screws with the 3.5". I got back a good bit if the sag... probably close to 1/16"!!

I'm going to try adding a bit of shim to the bottom two hinges to see if I can get back the rest of the sag and get the door level again.

Crossing my fingers...

I'll try to get pix up tomorrow.

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:16 pm

"the ADA does not apply to Churches"
Firstly I was referring to the electrics. No way we pass. (Whistles innocently).
And I'd be very worried if the ADA affected our church in Scotland. Laughing

AFAIK, it's a requirement here to have disabled access and also an induction loop - although I'm not sure on that one.
Which reminds me...(goes to post another topic)

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:41 am

The "Dirty Power" panel is on the right. The "Clean Power" panel is on the left. We'll be taking #3 copper down the conduit that exits to bottom, out to the isolation transformer and bringing it back in through the left panel's conduit that comes in at the bottom.

Here, you can see the process (and it IS a process) of getting the fire caulk done. It's going up in 3 stages... I caulk the side edges. Then the middle. After each of those harden up a bit, I go back a 3rd time and put a "finish" layer on to get all of the holes and holidays filled in and reasonably smooth. What a PITA!

I added the 3rd layer of lead sheeting to the exterior door. When I closed it, I noticed some sag. OOOPS!

Here are the 4 hinges, from top to bottom. As you can see, there is a slight gap at the top that narrows to no gap at the bottom. The gap is between the hinge plate and the jamb.

I had originally used the supplied 1.25" #12 coarse thread screws. I have now swapped out the top two hinges screws for a 3.5" exterior wood grade screw.

The door's sag came up by about 1/16"! So, major improvement. However, the door is still not quite level and wants to swing to about halfway open. I'll start with the next to the bottom hinge, and add a washer to each screw, and replace them with the 3.5". Then I'll move to the bottom hinge and add two washers to each screw and replace those screws.

Hopefully that will resolve the sag and get the door level once more.

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:42 am

Max,

try closing the door about 1/2 way and then adding shims under the door itself to where you want it - then re-set the top 2 hinges (when you remove the screws you will probably want to tighten those shims a wee bit more.

FWIW - I do not reccomend using framing lumber for door frames - framing really isn't stable enough to be well suited for that.

Rod

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:58 am

Rod Gervais wrote:

Max,

try closing the door about 1/2 way and then adding shims under the door itself to where you want it - then re-set the top 2 hinges (when you remove the screws you will probably want to tighten those shims a wee bit more.

FWIW - I do not reccomend using framing lumber for door frames - framing really isn't stable enough to be well suited for that.

Rod

Will do...

About the door frame lumber... I understood that the frame had to be pressure treated to exist in that location (on concrete and exterior) as an outward swing... you mean it doesn't?

damn!

Kinda' irritating that I keep getting bad news/info from the inspector's office and other local contractors.

Well... should I consider rebuilding the frame with oak? I'd rather do it now than waiting a couple of years and then having to do it when it's gonna cost even more.

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:35 am

MadMax wrote:

About the door frame lumber... I understood that the frame had to be pressure treated to exist in that location (on concrete and exterior) as an outward swing... you mean it doesn't?

Max,

although the are requirements that all structural members in direct contact with concrete (or masonry for that matter) (that is in direct contact with earth within less than 8" of the top of the wall) there is NO REQUIREMENT for non-structural members to be protected.

So the jack and stud that run down to the slab elevation do - but the door frame doesn't.

Show me a single exterior door frame (outswing) from a door manufacturer that is pressure treated............ it doesn't exist - they are all primed clear pine (and fingerjointed to boot).

Quote:

Well... should I consider rebuilding the frame with oak? I'd rather do it now than waiting a couple of years and then having to do it when it's gonna cost even more.

I wouldn't make an oak frame - I would use 5/4 stock #1 pine

Rod

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