Pics From YOUR Studio

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:52 am

Yeah, I do sound a bit hostile there. Not really meaning to be, just a bitter sarcastic troll.

Why are you measuring the distance between those weird looking mics? Is it to get a ratio between their distance and the height over a known spread of strings?

Btw, tables and chairs are cheap. Your back isn't.

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:04 pm

Greener wrote:

Why are you measuring the distance between those weird looking mics? Is it to get a ratio between their distance and the height over a known spread of strings?

It's to curb phasing issues. Trying to get an equal distance between the mics and the sound source. You see drummers do the same thing with overhead mics and their snare. They’ll measure the same amount of “stick lengths” between the two overheads and each overhead to the snare drum.

I’m not a pro on the science of phasing so someone else might be more qualified to answer why and how it works. I just know these are some techniques to avoid it.

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:10 pm

I get why drummers do it for a snare. But in this case you have 88 snares.

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:28 pm

Greener wrote:

I get why drummers do it for a snare. But in this case you have 88 snares.

That took me a second to get.

You need both mics to get a balanced tone across all the strings. Or you can use one mic but you have to back it way up to get the entire sound of the piano but then you lose the attack and clarity of each string and doesn’t sound as good, IMO.

So using two mics with the same sound source, there is a center point between each mic at which they're going to start picking up the same frequencies at the same rate. You want to try eliminating as many dual frequencies reaching both mics at the same time as you can otherwise the freqs “phase” each other out and you get a funky washed out tone. The best way I know how to get rid of it is to get an equal distance between the mics and the sound source. Or position the mics in a way that they're not going to pick-up the same freqs.

I don’t know if I’ve described the physics of it all accurately or not but this is how I understand it. I don’t know exactly why it does what it does, I just know it does it and I have to do X to eliminate it.

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:11 pm

Tracking some hand percussion...

...and a few keyboards...

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:35 pm

mrbwnstn wrote:

Greener wrote:

I get why drummers do it for a snare. But in this case you have 88 snares.

That took me a second to get.

You need both mics to get a balanced tone across all the strings. Or you can use one mic but you have to back it way up to get the entire sound of the piano but then you lose the attack and clarity of each string and doesn’t sound as good, IMO.

So using two mics with the same sound source, there is a center point between each mic at which they're going to start picking up the same frequencies at the same rate. You want to try eliminating as many dual frequencies reaching both mics at the same time as you can otherwise the freqs “phase” each other out and you get a funky washed out tone. The best way I know how to get rid of it is to get an equal distance between the mics and the sound source. Or position the mics in a way that they're not going to pick-up the same freqs.

I don’t know if I’ve described the physics of it all accurately or not but this is how I understand it. I don’t know exactly why it does what it does, I just know it does it and I have to do X to eliminate it.

I dont think anyones been that 'bitchy'......Maybe Remy, but you have to understand that from her perspective, experimentation is 'good' but there are certain things that dont need experimentation....one of which is 'what mic to use on a snare'. If you have MD421's and you dont use them there its kinda ???HUH??? and personally, choosing an SM7 for snare isnt all that it might have seemed to be when you did it.....

As for 'needing' both mics to get a balanced tone across the piano, I dont agree totally. This is ,again, a mic choice. Perhaps with those two mics you'll need it. And the room will have a lot to do with the attack of the piano. Keeping the lid on has another entirely different effect yet its profound in its value and the response of the mics. Hopefully this measuring will have the pattern of the mics in mind.

You have the velocity part of your equation in the right place, however the 'phasing' out of certain overlapping frequencies due to mic proximity is something you might want to experiment with a little more. This is something that can happen, but I'm not too sure its because of what you think its because of.............Either way, if this technique works for you then its a good one.

I'm more of a SDC person when it comes to close micing baby grands. Theres much more spill control and the pattern is usually tighter by a lot. I like a room mic also and if its rock music, the lid comes off and you deal with the room accordingly. On the smaller babys this helps in creating size for the instrument. The lid being gone also gives the sound time to develop. Attack is achieved through close micing but big piano is achieved through letting the sound out into the room. If you have the ability, try a PZM sitting on a large piece of plexiglass under the piano. Its interesting what goes on under the harp.

Also, I'm thinking that your TLM103's through the Portico may give you a better overall piano sound. Even though they get panned a lot on the net, they make great piano mics through the right pre. The Portico is the right pre.

Hows that for bitchy???

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:39 pm

Davedog wrote:

mrbwnstn wrote:

Greener wrote:

I get why drummers do it for a snare. But in this case you have 88 snares.

That took me a second to get.

You need both mics to get a balanced tone across all the strings. Or you can use one mic but you have to back it way up to get the entire sound of the piano but then you lose the attack and clarity of each string and doesn’t sound as good, IMO.

So using two mics with the same sound source, there is a center point between each mic at which they're going to start picking up the same frequencies at the same rate. You want to try eliminating as many dual frequencies reaching both mics at the same time as you can otherwise the freqs “phase” each other out and you get a funky washed out tone. The best way I know how to get rid of it is to get an equal distance between the mics and the sound source. Or position the mics in a way that they're not going to pick-up the same freqs.

I don’t know if I’ve described the physics of it all accurately or not but this is how I understand it. I don’t know exactly why it does what it does, I just know it does it and I have to do X to eliminate it.

I dont think anyones been that 'bitchy'......Maybe Remy, but you have to understand that from her perspective, experimentation is 'good' but there are certain things that dont need experimentation....one of which is 'what mic to use on a snare'. If you have MD421's and you dont use them there its kinda ???HUH??? and personally, choosing an SM7 for snare isnt all that it might have seemed to be when you did it.....

As for 'needing' both mics to get a balanced tone across the piano, I dont agree totally. This is ,again, a mic choice. Perhaps with those two mics you'll need it. And the room will have a lot to do with the attack of the piano. Keeping the lid on has another entirely different effect yet its profound in its value and the response of the mics. Hopefully this measuring will have the pattern of the mics in mind.

You have the velocity part of your equation in the right place, however the 'phasing' out of certain overlapping frequencies due to mic proximity is something you might want to experiment with a little more. This is something that can happen, but I'm not too sure its because of what you think its because of.............Either way, if this technique works for you then its a good one.

I'm more of a SDC person when it comes to close micing baby grands. Theres much more spill control and the pattern is usually tighter by a lot. I like a room mic also and if its rock music, the lid comes off and you deal with the room accordingly. On the smaller babys this helps in creating size for the instrument. The lid being gone also gives the sound time to develop. Attack is achieved through close micing but big piano is achieved through letting the sound out into the room. If you have the ability, try a PZM sitting on a large piece of plexiglass under the piano. Its interesting what goes on under the harp.

Also, I'm thinking that your TLM103's through the Portico may give you a better overall piano sound. Even though they get panned a lot on the net, they make great piano mics through the right pre. The Portico is the right pre.

Hows that for bitchy???

Thanks for the perspective on recording piano. I'll keep it in mind next time we do it.

As far as people making excuses for acting bitchy... that’s great that someone has some kind of perspective or excuse for acting bitchy but that doesn’t negate the fact they’re acting like a bitch. If someone wants to act like one, fine, but I hope they’re not offended when someone points it out.

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:54 pm

I think you should spend more time getting to really know someone before you point things out that may or may not be true.

Assumptions without knowledge, especially on the net where there is no idea of the actual emotional content of a statement, is an empty road to nowhere.

YMMV.

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:02 pm

Davedog wrote:

I think you should spend more time getting to really know someone before you point things out that may or may not be true.

Assumptions without knowledge, especially on the net where there is no idea of the actual emotional content of a statement, is an empty road to nowhere.

YMMV.

I'm not making a statement about the person in general rather the "bitchy comments". I mean, in the case of Remy, she called me stupid in her first correspondence with me, haha! However, I noticed you didn't respond to her in the same way you're responding to me?

You can't have your cake and eat it to. If you act like a jerk expect to be called on it.

Whatever, it's not important.

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:05 pm

Hi mrbwnstn

Thanks for taking time to document your project and share it with us! Keep up the posts.

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:12 pm

VonRocK wrote:

Hi mrbwnstn

Thanks for taking time to document your project and share it with us! Keep up the posts.

Thanks man! I will, I just need to find all the pictures. Smile

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:47 pm

i'd just grab a pg58 and put it inside the piano and close the lid. make sure to put the switch to "on".

run it through an Mbox2 pre and presto!

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:38 pm

mrbwnstn wrote:

Davedog wrote:

I think you should spend more time getting to really know someone before you point things out that may or may not be true.

Assumptions without knowledge, especially on the net where there is no idea of the actual emotional content of a statement, is an empty road to nowhere.

YMMV.

I'm not making a statement about the person in general rather the "bitchy comments". I mean, in the case of Remy, she called me stupid in her first correspondence with me, haha! However, I noticed you didn't respond to her in the same way you're responding to me?

You can't have your cake and eat it to. If you act like a jerk expect to be called on it.

Whatever, it's not important.

The response you're getting as opposed to responding to my fellow moderator is based on KNOWING what she MEANT by such a comment.

Its not what you thought and my suggestion to you is to learn about people and how they go about their business before leveling a judgement.

My response towards you is being measured on how you are responding to people you do not know. I am the moderator of this panel and thats what I'm doing. Moderating.

I too appreciate the sharing of your project. Best of luck at the mix.

Your bassist is very very good.

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:45 pm

Thanks for the compliment on our bassist. I agree, he's a very talented player. We're lucky to have him.

Some more photos tracking mando...

This guy's name is Ken Sager. I met him randomly via MySpace and he was cool enough to come and track some mandolin parts. Check him out at http://www.myspace.com/kensagermusic if you like cool Nu-Jazz/Bluegrass mandolin fusion.

In this pic he's recording through a Blue Baby Bottle on our song The Best Part which you can hear here if you care. We also tracked him using the Blue Kiwis and I personally like the Kiwis better. They're a dryer than the Bottle and really capture the nuance of his playing better, IMO.

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:36 pm

"i'd just grab a pg58 and put it inside the piano and close the lid. make sure to put the switch to "on"."

rockstardave, that is the best advice I've seen on these forums in a while Laughing

I knew PG58s had a purpose...

But, you forgot to mention the cable Wink

This topic sponsored by: