Advice on Studio construction materials-ICF?

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:12 pm

I look forward to being proven wrong as Canuck continues to post with more and more information and updates as his lengthy studio building saga continues.

As for information about Insulated Concrete Forms, I really don't know. I think it's a brand name. Similar to pre-fab concrete. The brand name styling choice of Soviet Russia. One big slab of drab.

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:11 pm

canucklehead88 wrote:

OMG!!! What a beautiful studio!!!! Wow!!! well.. my studio.. will not look anything like that!!!...lol..

Yeah. That studio was built on royalties. LOL. Imagine that? You won't see that happening in the near future.....unless you work for Coke or Disney writing commercials and film scores. I can't remember the song but you know them. I can't remember the band either but those boys would be household names if I could remember. Rolling Eyes

The eighties and early nineties were just a drug induced blur to me. Embarassed

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:08 pm

Well, ventilation is one thing, moisture in the air because your ac unit is not getting enough of it out is another.

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:07 am

canucklehead,

When I was originally looking into building a studio, I looked at ICF. It's really not a bad way to go... providing they do enough of it in the Vancouver area to get a reputable contractor.

Mass is your friend for isolation... remember that.

When I was looking into it, several years ago, the standard thickness was a residential thickness of 8". Despite the mass that an ICF wall got you, it was only one mass. At that time, they were only able to do ICF below grade, so all the above grade insulation was removed, or it was the precast that had no integrated exterior insulation that was capable of accepting exterior finishes.

If anyone, or anything, came in direct physical contact with the surface, it would be directly transmitted from one side to another w/very little density change to slow down the sound energy. That being the case, I was afraid that that amount of mass would still be problematic as far as structure born noise unless I used a room within a room design.

So, in my case, it was cost prohibitive.

I'm sure there have been improvements in both the ICF system and construction methods. If they can build thicker walls or provide higher density concrete now days, you might be in better shape going that way. Despite some noise you'll hear from some folks, there's two ways at looking at a facility...

Either you you control the space, or the space controls you.

Most folks are "stuck" using an existing space that's too small, too short, too narrow....... too something. Then they have to do all kinds of stuff to make that space acceptable, and thus... the space controls them.

If you are designing from the ground up... get a handle on the goals of the space usage. Then, design that space for that usage.

As has been mentioned, your HVAC is going to be pretty critical, and something I've learned the hard way, that is VITALLY important to your studio... So, put some thought to it, or pay a consultant to assist you with it... not just an HVAC contractor...

I will pass this much on, as one studio owner to another.. yes, it costs more to do it right. So what? It's cheaper to build it right the first time. And it's cheaper to add the things you think are somewhat over the top, than retrofit them into your project at a later date.

Mine was the shower in the bathroom... its costing about $1000 for it... but it would cost $3k-$5k to add it on, even at this point in the build.

It's not gonna' get any cheaper to add things than when you first build.

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:29 pm

Great info and advice MadMax!, There seems to be quite a few contractors who work with ICF in my area (greater Vancouver) .. I've found a couple of houses that have used it near where I live. On the one house it was only used as a "pony" wall (I might have the wrong term) so it was just the first 4 feet of his wall in his house... The other house I know less about, but my friend tells me the owner used it for the main floor of his house...I'm going to try and contact him and pick his brain... He apparently did this a year or so ago, so i should be able to get some useful information regarding the installation , and then living in/with this kind of construction. As for having to remove the insulation for anything above ground... as I understand it, that is not the case with ICF construction now... it's designed to stay attached after the walls are poured, and then drywall (inside) and siding (outside) is attached directly to it...
I'm still trying to get a handle on the cost associated with building with this material vs. conventional soundproofing, using wood frame... and the plus and minuses of how soundproof i can make it with either process...

One of things i know i'll need to consider is the number of seperate Cement Truck visits to deliver the concrete for the various stages... (Foundation, ICF Walls, ICF deck (roof), and the slab for the floor) Apparently it's a $700.00 bill for each cement truck visit (just to have the truck show up..) ... and it has to be poured in those stages... I'm going to meet with an ICF installer next week, and try and get more information....

Anyway, thanks again for the Advice.. it looks like i might be on the right track here...

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:40 pm

Hey everybody, i just wanted to give you an update. I had a chance to sit down with a ICF supplier and get a quote on what would cost and a lot more information and details regarding building my Studio using ICF construction.

The quote is a room with the inside dims of 8 feet high x 12 feet wide x 18 feet long, with two door openings and two windows. the cement walls will be 8 inches thick plus 2 1/4 inches (x2) for the panels that make up the forms.. for a total wall thickness of 12 1/2 inches... the outside wall will be finished with siding, andthe inside with Drywall. cost of materials (the insulated concrete forms) is $2528.00 plus $4600.00 for labour (23 hours), concrete, cement truck pump, bracing, scafolding, rebar, etc. I'm also considering using their ICF decking system for the roof.. (thickness would be about 10-12 inches) cost for the deck is about $3400.00 for everything including labour.

The cost of the footings for the wall and slab floor will have to be added will also have to be added to the cost.. i'm guessing that'll be another $2500...

Windows, Doors, Siding, Gyproc, Electrical, Heating& Venting will all be added costs..(and anything else I've forgotten...)

My plan is to pour the footings (perimeter) and then pour the slab floor seperately.. I'm thinking about kind of floating the floor (at least from the footings) so that sound from AMPS or drums won't be as easily transfered from the vibrations through the floor... (i'm thinking about leaving a 1-2 inch gap (probably using some ICF panels to create this gap)

So... here's my question...(s) the STC rating of these ICF walls is in the high 50's low 60's, obviously my STC rating with the doors and window will be less but my plan was to use two seperate doors (at each opening) as well as two seperate window frames (at each opening)to help with the soundproofing... Based on the above costs, is this still a cost effective, and sound proof effective way to build my studio? Would I acheive the same STC ratings using a 2 wall cosnstruction method out of wood? (I don't really have any constraints with how much space the thickness of the walls take up, because this room is being built on the back of me existing house.

Also, whether i use the ICF construction for the walls or a 2 wall wood system for the walls... should the deck (ceiling) be built using ... wood construction and build an independently framed ceiling like the one Rod describes in his book? (page 76-77). What's STC rating? (instead of the cement deck i descibed earlier)

The deck / ceiling of my studio also doubles as my outside back deck (2nd floor of my house) so I'm a little concerned about noise transfer from people walking on the deck.

Well that's about it... I hope i gave enough detail to get some ideas/feedback concerning all of this... thanks a lot!!!!

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:58 pm

The problem with your plan is this- the isnulation that creates the form has no real value - the thickness of the wall ith the additional od some mass still leaves you with a single leaf wall - and although you can acheive the STC ratings you are taling about - the LF TL values are going to be very small.

In order for you to acheive anything of real value in the low end - you are still going to have to use room within a room construction.

There is no getting around that.

No matter what you construct with (within reason - perhaps a buried bunker with 5' thick concrete walls and 2 to 3 feet of earth cover would get the job done without a room in a room - perhaps) - in the end - real isolation in the LF range requires isolated construction of the room within - it must be acoustically isolated from the main structure - otherwise it doesn't matter what you do - it won't work.

Sincerely,

Rod

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:37 pm

Thanks for the advice Rod! Ultimately I want to build this studio right... btw I wasn't imagining that the insulation (from the IC forms) was adding much sound insulation ... my thinking was... Mass is King.. and i thought 8 inches of concrete thick walls would do the trick! However as you pointed out i'm building was is essentially a single wall construction, I'm not going to be able to acheive the sound proofing I'm after with ICF (sound like low freq. will be big an especially big problem..)

My question is in a room within a roon construction design, how much space between the two seperate walls? does more space equals better soundproofing? Also in your isolated ceiling deck design what is the STC rating? (the one in your book where you describe a framed ceiling -Page 76-77)

thanks again!!!

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:18 pm

canuckle,

Eric Desart created a wonderful spreadsheet over at Studio Tips. You have to sign up to get the tools... but that's ok... you WANNA get to know that bunch of propellorheads anyway!

The spreadsheet that Eric developed covers exactly the subject you're talking about.

But, to clarify... the air gap is important, but understanding that air gap is more important.

In a conventional stud wall, here's your number and I hope a clearer understanding as well...

gypsum board
2x4 stud (3.5" actual)
1" air gap
2x4 stud (3.5" actual)
gypsum

The total air space is inside to inside... 3.5+1+3.5=8" air gap

As I said, Eric's spreadsheet is pretty comprehensive...

What I did was use the spreadsheet, along with a calculator. I compromised in the air gap and increased the mass on the walls.

However, the "greatest" TL was with 3 layers of gypsum and 16" of wall cavity/air space... few can afford that. It ends up making for some seriously high dollar square footage,

HTH,
Max

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:13 pm

canuckle,

What Greener was trying to tell in his particular way is that the guys who know much about this stuff won't answer unless you post more information about your proyect (Read the Stickies at the Studio Construction Forum) like Plans, drawings, budget and a couple of numbers. Also you must talk about what kind of work will you do at your facility (acoustic music, solists, full rock band, audio video editing, only mixing) and if you are working at any hour or office time (if you try to track drums at 3 AM tou'll need lots of more isolation).

Also, i believe that if your plan is at its really begining and you are looking for all the answers here they will not be adressed due to lack of time.

I'm on a projects like yours and learned a little about this.

Sincerely
eFe

This topic sponsored by: