Sorting out the experts

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:13 am

Studio designer, architect, acoustician, structural engineer, builder...what are their respective roles in designing a new studio? Where do their roles overlap and where do they divide? Is it necessary to have one of each when designing and building a studio, or are there different combos that can work? And what kinds of experts am I forgetting to even name?

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:33 am

What kind of experts are you forgetting?? Those experts called County, State & Fire inspectors. You know? The ones that screw your studio up after you spend all this money having those other guys do that other stuff that would have made it right in the first place.

I don't need no stinkin' inspectors. Well, except for the Department Of Motor Vehicles.

Mercedes-Benz 1117 mobile studio owner. Don't get me started. Diesel costs too much.
Ms. Remy Ann David

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:43 am

larrytheo wrote:

Studio designer, architect, acoustician, structural engineer, builder...what are their respective roles in designing a new studio? Where do their roles overlap and where do they divide? Is it necessary to have one of each when designing and building a studio, or are there different combos that can work? And what kinds of experts am I forgetting to even name?

Dang Larry... you got some good questions...

Rather than going through and answer your questions directly (Because you WON'T likely like the answers) lemme' address your query as a whole.

The studio design process can be as simple or complex, as you are willing to spend your money.

Building what I would call a studio vs. what you would call a studio, could be two completely different things... same is true for most of your above named professionals.

Additionally, depending on budget again, you might also need to engage only one, or several, of these professionals... depending upon your choice of design, building method, building codes, etc.

If these variables aren't confusing enough, there's a couple more to throw into the mix... how good are your skills in some of the disciplines that are associated with the construction process? Is the project a commercial project? Are you pulling the structure out of the ground, or is it an upfit?

By example;
In my case, I have a pretty decent background in construction trades. I've done concrete work, framing, drywall, electrical, finish carpentry and am a hobbyist woodworker. So, I was willing to take on much more (too much, in some ways) the role of General Contractor and Project Manager.

Additionally, I was also a bit ambitious and decided to do a good chunk of the design on my own, since I know a bit of CAD drawing.

HOWEVER, I realized that there was a good chance that I was going to have a lot of missed items, wrong construction methods, etc. So, rather than spend countless hours trying to get my drawings corrected and then fight to have them certified by a structural engineer, I planned on getting the basic drawings to a certified structural engineer who knows acoustics and studio design.... e.g. Rod Gervais.

It was worth everything (and a WHOLE lot more) to have Rod do the drawing review and clean-up on my drawings!!

Again, depending on a lot of factors that are going to be related to your California building codes, you might be forced to have a structural engineer. You might need a general contractor, a project manager and/or other engineering professionals.

In my case, the requirement for having a LICENSED commercial general contractor was waived because my construction was an upfit to an existing structure and the dollar amount was only $5000 over the budget limit that the county has established as the break-over point for said licensed GC.

You may, or may not run into the same thing.

I would encourage you to contact the local building inspector's office and make an appointment to sit down with the chief inspector (or his designate) to discuss what your plans are. You don't have to have a 4 hour meeting going over every single detail. Just ask them about the major things that concern you, and then ask them what are some of the big items that they see as problems or mistakes that builders commonly make... TAKE NOTES!! If you address these up front, your inspections will go a LOT better.

For some reason, a LOT of folks seem to think the inspections offices are your enemy. THEY AREN'T! They are there to be sure that construction projects are built to a minimum standard. If you are going to go to the trouble of building a studio, you will probably be doing things, that at a minimum, are going to far exceed what the code requires. However, you will also be doing a couple of things that the inspectors are not going to be completely familiar with.

This is where having a knowledgeable structural engineer involved with your project will prove to be invaluable. Don't believe me?... go read some of the posts that Rod has made in my build thread.

One last point I'd make is that if it's worth doing... do it right! DO get your permits and inspections. Failing to do so can have some seriously deep and far reaching repercussions. Failing to get those permits and inspections can cost you everything you own, if you are sued by the city, county, state, insurance company and/or individuals if there were to be a problem with the structure and it was NOT signed off.

All in all, I guess this is a long winded way to say... it depends.

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:06 pm

Many thanks for many good thoughts, Max.

I do realize that each project will have its own specific needs, I guess I thought someone might be able to give an overview of the specialized disciplines so that I could better evaluate what I need for my project.

My project is to put a room-within-a-room studio in a detached two-car garage with a vaulted ceiling. I have NO experience in construction, which is why I am assuming I'll need to hire professionals, but I don't have the budget to just hire a GC and a PM and be done with it. I do project management for a living, but not construction PM, meaning that I understand sussing out and following up on every little detail, but I don't know all the details that are relevant in this case.

So, I can do drawings good enough to give someone the idea and some dimensions, but not good enough by themselves to use for much. I can probably enlist more experienced friends (I do have some) and learn on the fly enough to build some stuff (walls and floor, I'm imagining), but will need a professional to do the ceiling, electrical, and HVAC. You get the idea.

I know I need a structural engineer because the roof support system that's in place now is kind of a weird overkill design that will be hard to build around, so I need a different one designed and built.

Anyway, I think I can sort out my own needs if I can get some basic definitions to get my head around the entire context.

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:07 pm

Ahhh... ok...

I would suggest getting your rough idea at least sketched out.

Then, I would contact someone like Rod... structural engineer/acoustician/studio designer, and hire him to flesh out those sketches to real drawings.

Of course, you can always go to an architect and get prints... then submit them to someone like Rod for review, but your architect is likely to charge you for changes... PLUS the cost of having the prints reviewed by someone like Rod.

So... (yes I AM biased) why go through all the trouble of 2, 3 or even 4 different designers/engineers/etc, when you can go to a single source like Rod.

You can go to someone like Manzella, Augsberger, etc... but they generally only take on projects from the start and handle everything themselves.

The next thing would be to contact a GC.

Once you get that far along, you'll need to determine if the GC will approve subs, or if you will.

All along, you'll need to be sure you are in the loop with the GC and the inspectors, zoning board, etc...

Any clearer... or did I muddy the waters more?

Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:01 pm

I'm always amazed that people confuse soundproofing & acoustics.

If you have a lot of outside ambient noise, you need soundproofing.

If you need your space to sound good, you need acoustics.

If you're disturbing your neighbors? You need to move.

Otherwise, you better have lots of $$$, have a great big mansion & live at least 50 yards away from your nearest neighbor.

Have you considered purchasing a roomful of DI boxes & electronic drum pads?? It would cost a lot less.

Recording where the Strata is Various
Ms. Remy Ann David

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:37 pm

With all due respect, Remy, I beg to differ.

First of all, I'm not yet addressing room treatment. From the standpoint of planning construction, I am concerning myself initially with vibration isolation. Room treatment and tuning will come later, though I do intend to keep an eye on reverberation decay time (over frequency) during design and construction.

Now, it would certainly be cheaper and easier to get pads and a DI, but that rather defeats the purpose of the exercise. Many years of playing and engineering professionally brought me to the conclusion that electronic instruments are quite simply inferior in both sound and playing feel to acoustic instruments when acoustic instrument sounds are the objective.

(It should be said that I have done a lot of synthesis and sound design, so I do fully appreciate what electronic instruments can do.)

The point is that I am a very good drummer, acoustic drums sound better than sampled, and I *like* playing real drums, so I am loath to lower my standards by going electronic. However, that ethic defines a need for serious isolation (the purpose of which is to keep external noise out AND internal noise in). That is why I need the help of professionals to design this studio correctly.

There is no need for me to move, only to achieve a healthy amount of transmission loss at low frequencies. I've not disturbed neighbors with any of my previous studios, and my objective is never to do so.

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:35 pm

Don't forget the electrical side as well. You don't want ground loops. You want to plan your power and wiring plan early, as you may have some HVAC issues when you need to intergrate the two.

Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:01 pm

I have only four words to add.

Box within a box. Airtight on a HVAC that takes multiple turns and falls out of the plenem. And you may not get arrested?

Mmmmm mmm mm mmmmmmm mmmmmmmm ugh
Ms. Remy Ann David

Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:19 pm

Think Muffler.... for HVAC

And Star ground for your grounding

Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:41 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_discipline

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:04 am

All good points.

"Box-within-a-box" is what I meant when I said "room-within-a-room," and I can't see any other way to get decent isolation from a standard garage, from what I've read so far.

A good electrical plan is certainly on my radar. I have a decent start: there's already a dedicated circuit for outlets and one for lights. I'll need more, but there's more room in the breaker box and plenty of conduit going over there. Star grounding using isolated-ground outlets was what I was thinking. What I don't know is whether it makes sense to consider sinking a separate ground for the studio, and how that works relative to the breaker box ground. But I am definitely planning on using a licensed electrician to help me get this together, most likely one with studio experience.

HVAC is another excellent question. I'll need heat in the winter, as well as AC in the summer, so right now I'm looking at a split system. There seem to be some pretty quiet ones out there at decent prices. I do actually have the room in the vaulted ceiling for a duct labyrinth, though the trouble and expense of installing it could be considerable (especially if I opt for duct silencers and insulation on the outside and in the turns). I know that needs to be in the plan before everything is final and I apply for permits, but I can't do everything at once!

That was an interesting Wikipedia link, but it still doesn't answer the original question. It defines the disciplines and professions, but doesn't paint a picture of the roles played in a studio design project. I guess I'll figure it out as I go along!

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:57 am

Larry,

OK, lemme see if I can summarize my build's contractors/trades. Maybe that will give you what you're looking for as far as who does what...

Initial Design Stage - Me - I drew out the initial drawings
Design Review and Corrections/Engineering - Rod Gervais - Licensed Engineer (I don't know how many degree's or licenses Rod carries... but it's ample!)
General Contractor - Me (Only because it fell below a dollar value)
Job/Site Superintendent - Me (Generally the owner)
Plumbing Contractor - Licensed Plumber
Block Mason - Regular Block Mason
Concrete Contractor- Licensed Concrete Contractor
Electrical Contractor - Licensed Electrical Contractor
Framing Contractor - Me
HVAC Contractor - Licensed HVAC Contractor
Insulation/Drywall Contractor - Me
Finish Carpentry Contractor - Me
Flooring Contractor - Me
Painting Contractor - Me
Door/Window Contractor - Me

A studio can be designed by anyone with an idea.

In most cases, (I'm only familiar with the states anyway) a studio pulled from the ground up, will require a complete set of engineering plans. These plans must meet engineering standards and will therefore require at least one engineer's stamp of approval.

This seal can come from one, or many different engineering disciplines, depending on the size and complexity of the project. This is again a generality, but these disciplines are only concerned with the physical aspect of the construction and have nothing to do with the acoustic or soundproofing of the mechanical assemblies. They are simply to establish a construction method meets or exceeds established standards.

The entire design process that is directly related to the acoustic process, is IMHO, up to the owner to conceptualize. It is the owner's responsibility to see that the design is at least reviewed by one or more qualified individuals or firms that are conversant and have an established level of experience that qualifies them as an expert in their field.

Of course, there are other aspects of any proper design in a home, or on your personal property, that are integral to the quality of the creative environment. These are best left to another expert far outside the engineering field, for such an endeavor as that of building a studio. e.g. One's spouse is usually the individual I personally suggest be involved. I'm actually dead serious... If your spouse is anything like mine, she is not going to let the place get too far out of line with the rest of the decor of the house... and why should it?

If your spouse has decorated in pink tinted beige, do you really think you're gonna get away with chartreuse walls with black trim?

Truly, the design of a studio is a process that should be approached with caution.

Once your design is approved by all parties concerned, its time to get permits and hire contractors as required by your local government.

GENERALLY - It is the job of the superintendent to be the liason between the designer, architect, (and) engineer and the general contractor to see that the plans are being followed and completed on schedule.

The general contractor is responsible for co-ordinating the different trades and scheduling their work. Often, the GC is who establishes the contracts with the other trades as sub-contractors... e.g., They work for the GC, as "his" agents.

Hope this clears it up some.

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:25 pm

"Studio designer, architect, acoustician, structural engineer, builder...what are their respective roles in designing a new studio?" /quote

It is difficult to answer this question. The point at which one may overlap the other depends on which two are in question, in a general sense.

A builder, in general, is mostly concerned with the actual hands on construction and erection of the structure or addition. A builder may or may not have access to in-house design.

You may not ever actually see or even have need of a structural engineer. Typical residential type projects most often do not require the need for on site involvement.

An acoustician is more concerned with the acoustic properties of a room or rooms. There again, in general, they are not concerned with building the structure. One may have interest in actual interior wall products even wall placement as that would be part of what an acoustician would be involved for.

An architect designs buildings. One would have the most knowledge about, at least, what a builder or designer , etc, do and how to go about getting that job done. The architect could design your space from the ground up and would be able to define framing members, what is required for local code, how much of what could be put where and why or possibly why not.

A designer, not to be dismissed, designs according to existing or known parameters . There again, in general, a good designer can actually see a typical home rehab from start to end. While they may also be involved in lining up subcontractors, it is not typical, imo, for a designer to be too heavily involved as an ongoing presence. At least until the project enters the finish stage, a designer is not often present.

A designer could actually be the acoustician or even the builder. Or these three anyway you want to see them, can be interchangable. In general.

An architect has the broadest insight over a project but is not, as a rule, physically involved in the erection of any building they may design.

Well, I've made an attempt.

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