looking for a solution to room dimension problems

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:06 am

Hi everybody,

I'm new here and looking to get some good advice...hopefully I'm at the right place.

I've searched through the forums and come up with only threads that touched on this problem. I just noticed a guy in a similar situation but with a different set of questions.

Ok, here's the deal:

Scenario:

I'm a singer/songwriter for hobby mostly but I'd like to start recording and playing out places. I have a full-time job so I don't have as much time as I'd like to play/record music.

I want to build a "studio" of sorts in my basement. This will only be used for me to jam in, write music and record my original music. I would like to produce a somewhat professional sounding recording of my own music to give to bars and friends and stuff like that. I play mostly acoustic guitar, I've got a bunch of electrics which I'll play on most songs, an acoustic and an electric bass, and a djembe/bongo percussion set and every now and again I'll put a drum set in there for a few tracks. Eventually I'd like to add a vocal booth but right now I'm in the sound isolation stages.

The proposed room I describe below is the only space in my house that will work for this. Roughly, the room is (a terrible) 8x8x8. However, there is possibly a saving grace from the dimension imperfections that will inevitably happen in there. The room could possibly be a 'better' 13x4x8 (See attached pics for layout). My main questions are more towards soundproofing and eliminating the modes and waves from reflecting too much. Sound Isolation I've got down fine but I'm hoping that someone can offer a way to avoid a possible modal nightmare in this room.

Questions:
1. Is a room that is a rough 'L' shape any more forgiving with sound reflection/mode problems than a cube of a room? (room_description.jpg)
2. Is there any hope of having a room that I can still record decently for my intended purpose?
3. Is there a way to arrange the two large contents in the room to make it better for that purpose? (2 arrangement pics)
4. Is there possibly any wave deflection techniques that might help?

Of the attached pictures:
- Room_Description.jpg: a room layout which has info on wall & celing construction, sound isolation I plan on having and room dimensions.
- arrangement1.jpg: a room arrangement with possible locations of a desk and a vocal booth
- arrangement2.jpg: another possible room arrangement with different locations of the desk and vocal booth

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help with this

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Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:48 am

slappy434 wrote:

1. Is a room that is a rough 'L' shape any more forgiving with sound reflection/mode problems than a cube of a room? (room_description.jpg)
2. Is there any hope of having a room that I can still record decently for my intended purpose?
3. Is there a way to arrange the two large contents in the room to make it better for that purpose? (2 arrangement pics)
4. Is there possibly any wave deflection techniques that might help?

Who would use a bathroom during recording?

Oh, wait.

I like the pictures, the flow-chart-esque nature and your use of paint, classic.

Some answers. I have no proof/reasoning/clue.
1: No.
2: Yes.
3: Yes. Bottom picture except swap the desk with the booth.
4: Yes.

If I could make some suggestions, read the stickies for this forum and do what it says for maximum fun.

Wink

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:05 pm

So one stud will be damped (or did the tape company use the word decoupled?) and one stud will not be damped (same question.)?

This trick isn't doing much more then wasting tape, time and money. IF you really are sold on this tape, do it on all the framing members as you are making a short circuit when the sheetrock on the next framing layout lands directly back onto the uncoated framing.

In any event you recouple the sheetrock back to the framing when it is fastened Smile

Maybe you should Google : wave deflection techniques

It's a mad world I know.

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Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:29 pm

A couple of points -

1. You will get more help if you follow the directions in the READ THIS BEFORE YOU POST sticky. (Maybe even from people who know what they are talking about.)

2. The L will make some sort of improvement. If you take my partial differential equations course this fall I can give you credit for calculating exactly how much! With a cube you get multiple resonant wave shapes with exactly the same frequency. So the room gets very excited at these frequencies. There is no simple formula for figuring out the wave shapes and resonant frequencies of an L like there is for a rectangle - but it can be done - at least numerically. You should expect clusters of resonant frequencies, but not as bad as a cube.

3. Isolation is much more expensive than making a room sound good. I was figuring at least 10 times as much (and a huge amount of work) for my room. In my case I did not think it was worth it. (Like yours the room is small an oddly shaped. It's never going to sound great. ) I worked on improving acoustics and have learned to work around the isolation problems. Is that possible in your case?

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:42 pm

He doesn't need people that know what they are talking about as long as you point out the math and I point out the errors in his tape idea.

Thumbs Up

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:08 pm

Thanks for the responses. Here's some follow up:

Space - The idea for the tape is somewhat of a decoupling effect. Bear in mind that the only place the sheetrock is attached to a stud is if it has this tape on it, it won't be attached to every stud. I realize the 'short circuit' you speak of and supposedly, since its attached to every other stud, it is somewhat like a staggered stud technique w/o actually being able to build that. Here's the link to the tape I'm talking about -
http://www.soundproofing.org/infopages/Tape.htm

Greener - it was actually MS Word that I used. Paint would have been a heckuva headache, plus my artwork skills are terrible. Fortunately, my building and music talents are better.

Bob - Thanks for the advice. Although, Isolation isn't my biggest worry. I'm probably going overboard with what I'm doing. I wont ever be recording when there's anyone else in the house except my wife and a couple of her friends...if even then. Too much frequency, reverberation and sound wave resonance are my concerns right now. Unfortunately, I'm a computer mind that hates math....probably why I was hoping that someone would have experience with this type of situation. BTW, I did read the initial sticky about reading before you post. I thought I followed the rules, I guess I'll re-read. Also, I just figured someone might know off the top of their heads some 'do' and 'don't do' ideas.

At any rate, If anyone has any experience with something like this or has more to add, I'm definitely interested. I'll look up some wave deflection things, I've got some in my head, but I'll look further.

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:32 pm

If you are willing to spend the coin on these wonder tapes(they may be of some effect, but...) and trying to decouple your ceiling running 2X4's across the joists...why not go on and get the resilient channel instead?

This room is what it is, small and of less then desirable dimensions. If you try to close off the "L" shape you create almost a cube shape. So keep all of it open.

It's just a place to get happy with what you are doing. In that respect, do it.

edit:
where did you hear the term "wave deflection"? What is that as it pertains to an acoustic environment?

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:01 am

Space - I never said they're "wonder tapes". The point of the thread was to ask about modes, sound wave and "wave deflection". Sound Isolation isn't my question. Furthermore, you seem to focus on what you think is wrong with my situation as opposed to respond to what I posted this for in the first place. Admittedly however, its good that someone calls out the problems, just in case I don't think of them.

Although the 2x4 separation isn't the best, RC costs more and takes more time. I agree it's ideal but not practical. There's no real need for it, I'm not afraid of stomping on the floor, simply casual walking. Based on my research (which could be insufficient) the proposed setup should be fine.

Also, I'm not trying to close off the L shape, I'm trying to use it to my advantage. Hence the reason I asked in the first place.

"Wave deflection" is a term I heard way back when, I believe referring to optical waves (I'm a computer guy). It was just a term I thought of because I wrote the post quickly and didn't have time to think about it. I suppose the terms I was referring to (and hoping to avoid) are modal tones, prime frequencies and probably more importantly, flutter echo. Based on my description, I figure you'd get the point of the question, I could be wrong though.

I mean no disrespect here, I just feel like you're focusing on all the wrong details. Very Happy

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:09 am

"I mean no disrespect here, I just feel like you're focusing on all the wrong details." /quote

I'm thinking the same thing in reverse.

edit:
Best you can hope for is to die in your sleep. That said, bass traps are a small rooms best modification.

If your desire is to figure out how to combat the effects of (insert highly technical phrase here)then make the room and find out using measurements if they are even a problem yet.

Avoiding an acoustic issue isn't the goal for you. You cannot outsmart something that moves 1130 feet per second.

Bass traps everywhere.

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:19 am

Space wrote:

"I mean no disrespect here, I just feel like you're focusing on all the wrong details." /quote

I'm thinking the same thing in reverse.

Wow. really?. Ok, well re-read your posts and let me know if you ever addressed any of my 4 questions.

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:33 am

Basically, Slappy, what people, are saying, is, you need to ask better questions.

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:58 am

Greener wrote:

Basically, Slappy, what people, are saying, is, you need to ask better questions.

Ok, understood.

Of the 3 people who've responded, you and Bob Rogers seem to answer my questions, so I guess I don't think the questions are bad. It seems simple, but I'll try again:

1. Does anyone have any experience with a room like this and if so, how did you/can you go about avoiding flutter echo and resonating sound waves that will ruin a recording?
2. Is there a preferred way to arrange something large and solid like a vocal booth to minimize flutter echo, in this situation?
3. Do any of you with a good amount of experience have any helpful advice on what I can do to the room to ultimately produce the best recorded sound possible?

Also, it should be noted that sound isolation is not what I'm asking about here. I realize the importance of it and I probably should have elaborated more in the original post. There won't be very much noise outside the room that I'm worried about, its inside the room that concerns me.

Again, I appreciate all the answers.
Bob - you've done a great job at picking out what I'm asking and answering it, so extra thanks goes out to you.

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:10 pm

Space wrote:

"I mean no disrespect here, I just feel like you're focusing on all the wrong details." /quote

I'm thinking the same thing in reverse.

edit:
Best you can hope for is to die in your sleep. That said, bass traps are a small rooms best modification.

If your desire is to figure out how to combat the effects of (insert highly technical phrase here)then make the room and find out using measurements if they are even a problem yet.

Avoiding an acoustic issue isn't the goal for you. You cannot outsmart something that moves 1130 feet per second.

Bass traps everywhere.

Well thanks for the advice on life! Thumbs Up

Although morbid and a preferred way to exit, I'm not so sure its pertinent to add that on a recording forum.

And I thank you for answering. This is helpful info. However, as far as I understand it, room dimensions do help with eliminating something that moves 1130 feet per second. Am I mis-understanding something?
Outsmarting is not what I'm after, attempting to eliminate, is.

Bass traps as far as I'm aware don't usually help with higher frequencies. If I'm wrong, then your advice is extremely helpful and I thank you for it.

lemme know.

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:24 pm

When you ask for people "with a good amount of experience" you exclude me from helping you.

Whilst you seek to "ultimately produce the best recorded sound possible" I will continue not to help.

You are wrong but this advice isn't helpful.

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:26 pm

Slappy,

I am going to answer this now - and then you can re-read my stickie (the read this before you post one) and should focus on the things I said you need to do if you want answers here - because yuo aren't there yet..... and I will not bother to repeat what IO have already written that you claim to have read).

Quote:

1. Does anyone have any experience with a room like this and if so, how did you/can you go about avoiding flutter echo and resonating sound waves that will ruin a recording?

Flutter echo (along with combfiltering) is one of the easy things to deal with - create your set-up - use a mirror to locate the direct reflection points where you will be sitting (all 4 walls and the ceiling) - and install a 2" thick piece of 2x4 rigid fiberglass (3pcf) at the center of the mirror point - leave at least 2" of air space behind it.

Modal problems will be your single largest issue in a room this size - and it will get dramatically worse if you add a vocal booth to it - your best bet would be to make this just one room -

For modal issues you really need to treat room corners - and this one (due to the L shape) will be tricy - bacause yu will have additional sets of modes due to the multiple room dimensions -

In short form - treat as many corners as you posibly can with SSC's (Studiotips Super Chunks)

Here is a link:

http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=535

Understand that wall to wall corners are exactly the same as wall to ceiling corners - and that the tri-corners (walls meet walls meet ceilings / floors are the highest point of sound pressure in a room.

So your best bet is to do this from floor to ceiling - or (if doing a wall meets ceiling) wall corner to wall corner.

That captures both the corners plus the tri-corners.

Quote:

2. Is there a preferred way to arrange something large and solid like a vocal booth to minimize flutter echo, in this situation?

As I said earlier - the introduction of an isobooth in a room that small will only DRAMATICALLY increase your modal problems......

Quote:

3. Do any of you with a good amount of experience have any helpful advice on what I can do to the room to ultimately produce the best recorded sound possible?

Read the responses to 1 and 2 above...........

Even without it the room is one heck of a challenge - and the best you can get might be a long LONG way from what you would like to acheive - but believe me when I tell you that it can easily get worse in leaps and bounds if you make it even smaller.

One thing to remember - once your done all you can do - you will eventually "learn" your room and know just what adjustments you have to make so that the boosted and cut frequencies will be in perfect balance - and once you do it will be 2nd nature to you.

Until then - you should listen to your mixes on a variety of different sound systems in different locations to check for problems - once you have them adjusted so hey translate well - then you will know exactly what you have to do sonically in your mix.

If ANYONE tries to tell you that you can do better than that with this room - understand that they are blowing smoke up your a**,,,,,,,

Respectfully,

Rod

(Now go read that stickie - otherwise this is my LAST comment to you)

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