making vocal stand out in the mix

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2002 12:57 am

i do understand the term "ducking" to make vocal stand out in the mix with heavy guitar parts.
Julian, if you are in here, can you show me how to do this inside Protool????
thank you.

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2002 5:18 am

Fletcher tells of a trick where you but a gate on say, an extra ambient gtr mic track (keeping the close mic in the mix at all times) and setting up tthe gate to only have the extra track very audible when the singer is NOT singing...

So you could do this 3 ways in PT

1) Drawmwer plug in set to 'duck' on the amb gtr track, set up a mono send bus on the vocal track (pre fade) then 'pick up' that bus on the plug ins KEY input. Fiddle with the gate till it always shuts down, whenever the singer sings..

2) Use a compressor plug in on the GTR (must have a KEY input) send the vocals via a buss to the Key input and have the gtrs compress down whenever there is singing.

3) Fade it in & out by hand.

Good luck!

Smile

I have to try this out myself one day!

I am sure there are many other tricks folks use....anyone else?

Respected Past Moderator Joined: Mar 13, 2001 Posts: 1256

I'm probably going to regret this at some
point but here goes.....................

I'm going to TRY and give this away one more time. I guess people didn't understand (or maybe I'm obtuse and they (you) don't care...

....It involves using a modified DOLBY A card.
Either in recording or mixing you send an Aux send to the modified Cat22 card (usually in a 361 module) and return it to your mix "around" -10 relative to the source. Dolby's job is to Expand the top end on signals below the threshold. That means "air" when the singer is softer, and not brittle when there loud. It is much more subtle and cool than anything aphex ever dreamed up (excepting MAYBE there tube beta version). The reason to use a modified Cat22 card is to bypass the Lo & Lo mid compression circuits so that it only affects the top end. I know how to do the mod. I'm not a Tech per say...but I can do this. I'm NOT in this for a buck...I'm jsut trying to be nice and pass along good stuff...giving back,,,that sort of thing. But, this is as close as you can get to a "secret" trick that you've heard on more than a few records. It lets you "hear the tonsils" so to speak, and you can pull the vocal down into the track farther because it sounds apparrently louder. Ask MM if you're an unbeliever.

Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2002 7:02 am

Meanwile back to the vocal 'stand out' trickery ...

look what I found (re dolby A exciter idea above)

http://www.fxrentals.co.uk/newsite/fors ale/forsale.html

Cool eh? anyone interested I can help hook you up with FX. I am chummy with them.

Smile

P.S. Recorderman, do you have to have the whole rack? PSU & all Surprised

just to get one card going?

Respected Past Moderator Joined: Mar 13, 2001 Posts: 1256

Hey , we have a bite!

thank you Julian for chiming in.
First, a little history.
Ray Dolby was an engineer in the aeronautics biz (if I'm not mistaken) who came up with the brilliant concept of noise reduction. Basically the way dolby works is to make things brighter (especially up in the frequencies where tape hiss redsides) when you "encode"(read:record) with it. Then when you "decode" (read:playback), it dulls things just as much as it has previously brighted them. This in effect lowers the tape hiss level.
Now, in the sixties, the Beatles palyed around with the original 2 track version of this, the Dolby 201 or Dolby Stretch as it was known. Big grey units ( I think like 6 spaces...I haven't seen one in a while and I'm working from memory). Anyway, since they liked to break everything to see what would happen, ect. They started to use it to encode only. Not only that...they found that by removing several of the cards (thereby passing the lo / lomid compression) they could get it to not "pump."

Fastforward, many years, to a time I don't know exactly when....Keith Olsen, a BIG name from the '70's/'80's had a nice dinner with George Martin and plied him as to the "secret" of those breathy Beatle vocals. George alluded to the Dolby Stretch.
Keith, being very good with the electrical engineering end (not to metion the producing/arranging/recording & mixing ends)
deciphered how to do this with a Dolby Cat.22 card, which was at the time the more cost effecttive and ubiquitous version of the older Dolby 201. He found out how to mod these cards so that they do not pump.

You need a Dolby Cat.22 card, probably had for about $100 last time I checked. This goes into a dolby 361 module, another couple hundred for one of these. You can try it , and get an idea of it, without the mod...but it isn't quite the same.

Anyway, if your mixing. Send and aux of the Lead vocal to the Dolby361/Cat22. into the line in. take the "to record" out and bring it up on the desk. Relativr return volumn will be in the -6 to -10 db area. The 361 sholud be set to normal encoding.

This is truelly a cool effect. Since it is level dependent expansion, you get more "air " the sofer they sing, end less effect when there over the "0db" threshold. Therefore, playing with the aux send (sendind less input makes the Dolby work more,i.e. more "air").

Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2002 8:03 pm

I might just try and get a little system set up. I remember setting this up with some giant Dolby A units for some American producers was I was an intern. The used it on acc gtr too if I recall.

Smile

Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2002 9:14 pm

Hey, Julian, I thought the trick I remembered from Fletcher was to use the vocals to feed the sidechain of a (not particularly colorful) compressor. Stomp down the live mics when the singer's on, let 'em breathe when off. RNC is plenty fine for this. One tip, if effects are essential to the vocal part, use the processed signal to feed the sidechain, or your agonizingly synched multi-tap delays were for naught.

Bear

Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2002 11:25 pm

Yes the Dolby trick is very cool! Smile

You can do something similar with the not so well known dynamic eq unit they put out about 10 years ago that used an SR circuit at its heart. :w:

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2002 5:05 am

There must be a way to (roughly) simulate this Dolby effect with plug ins, using, say, a BBE plug in or other enhancer. Using an aux send, the plug in, and a compressor plug in. Any thoughts?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2002 8:10 am

One thing I've used to make a vocal stand out is: 1)copy the track. 2) leave the original track for the most part alone eq/compression wise 3) compress the crap out of the copy track 4) add a ton of eq in the 4-6 k range to it and blend it in w/the original track to taste. Don't think this would work too well w/ an overly sibilant vocal but if you don't have that going on it kinda works like an exciter.
Bob Green

Respected Past Moderator Joined: Mar 13, 2001 Posts: 1256

Quote:

Originally posted by Julian Standen:
I might just try and get a little system set up. I remember setting this up with some giant Dolby A units for some American producers was I was an intern. The used it on acc gtr too if I recall.

Smile

That's it.
I normally do the CAT22 card mod for $100.
But I'll cut that in half to $50 for anybody that sends me one postage paid.

And no...the BBE and Aphex do not sound the same (of course no two things sound the same).

Anyway...I'm not doing this for a paltry $50. It's just something I've known about for a long time and it raelly works at letting the vocal be more apparrent AND lower in the mix. It can fix a badly processed vocal by adiing the "air" and life back in.
Like I said...ask MM about it.

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2002 2:14 pm

Hey I found these.

SW0041 Dolby 361 frame SR & A Noise reduction cards offer GBP
SW0042 Dolby 361 frame SR & A Noise reduction cards offer GBP

is this what I need ( plus the cat 22 card) what is a reasonable price to offer for this 361 frame.? thanks

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2002 3:20 pm

what if one was to use just the top band of the multiband compressor (bypassing the rest)in the aux chain?

would that give similar (not same) results?

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2002 12:24 pm

Yippee, I own 4 of these 361 units AND 4 of the dolby A cards, and I always thought that these cards are absolutely useless (I use telcom c4 cards for decoding german broadcasting tapes). But now...

Where can I get a manual or at least some hints to make the modifications? (I would prefer not to send my cards to the usa and back to germany: too expensive and risky)

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2002 3:21 pm

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=859129543

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