Overhead Phase

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2001 6:54 am

Great thread gentlemen! Cool

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2001 8:43 am

One of the best features of a digital multitrack or DAW is the ability to slip drum tracks by the sample provided you have the time. The trick is to slide each mike back to match the most distant ones, usually the overheads. This is far more effective than just ballparking it with a phase switch plus you don't invert the waveform which is often an audible degradation. Another advantage of a DAW is that rather than guessing with gates, you can create a perfect envelope for each drum hit.

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2001 6:50 pm

Yo RecorderMan, broke out your OH measuring technique again during my session today, with the usual result: puzzlement and skepticism on the part of the drummer, giving way to near-worshipful adulation and comments like: "GODLIKE drum sound! My kit has never sounded this good!" etc.Thx again!

Respected Past Moderator Joined: Mar 13, 2001 Posts: 1256

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by gie:
RECORDERMAN thanX for all your info on this OH-setup. Really dig it...One more question:Because I have to do it with my "home stuff" I don't have much choice for the overhead setup.
It's gonne be a pair of AKG C3000's, or two (different) Neumann's: a M147 & U87.
(The pre's are Trident-MTA sig2)
What would you choose? The matched pair of C3000's or the U87 above the snare and the M147 on the FloorTom side??ThanX in advance!<hr></blockquote>I'd use the U87/M147.
Since you'll be doing it guerilla style, and I assume you won't have alot of mics&channels , and you'll be in a rehearsal space (not a properly designed;a.k.a. "good sounding space), I'd use the Fatter, fuller mics...even though they're not matched. The OH will be your Kit sound & they'll pick up enough room. (Don't be afraid to experiment. You could also try two mics in mono. U87; two sticks over the snare and the M147 out in front of the kit about the height of the kick drum...or...experiment.) ...But if you do use the "two drum stick OH technique" try listening to each of the mics in each position. That is.
1. U87 over snare;M147 towards floor tom, AND
2. M147 over snareU87 towards floor tom. One combination over the other will probably be real obvious...or not...you won't actually know untill you hear it...good Luck

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2001 4:46 am

So, what was the final call on the phase issue thing then? I mean, when a kick drum is hit, we want our speaker to push outwards 1st, probably the same for snare and other drums, correct? So in that case, should we just automatically reverse the phase on the overheads, or no? And if so, what about the inside-the-kick mic that we may have in there? If we reverse that to match the overheads, then we arent getting the "speaker pushing out" effect... or are we?
Geez, I'm thinking too much. Any answers here?

Respected Past Moderator Joined: Mar 13, 2001 Posts: 1256

Geez, I'm thinking too much. Any answers here?[/QB][/QUOTE]
...Yes you are
Surprised

You're thinking too black and white. If you want to really get a handle on this whole "phase/polarity" issue, I recommend:
1. Taking the plunge and purchasing a polarity checker. they cost a couple of hundred; and you can start educating yourself.
2. Learn to place mic's with headphones on...it's an eduction and allows "realtime" judgement on placements and relationships...you can hear when things are "in phase", "out of phase" and anything inbtween. I also would argue that the only mic to worry about as far as absolute polarity is first kick mic;that is,which ever one will make the majority of your kick sound. Do this one with the "absolute polarity clicker." After that...USE YOU EARS. All tother mics in your drum set-up should be close to relative phase compared to this mic, by ear. If any other mic is too far out of phase with this first mic, then the kick will sound thin. You should never have to flip your OH's 180 degrees from the kick or snare. If you do then either something in the chain is wired 180 out of polarity or their in the wrong spot. Height plays a big part. Raising and lowering the height of the OH's can bring them in and out of a complementary position, relative to the Kick & Snare, etc. I can position 30 mic's on a kit/room and they all work together...so it can be done. It's really all about training yourself to hear "phase" . Training exercise#1. Take a sm57 and a 451. (or a 57 and any other small diaphram /pencil style condenser). Put some head phones on. Hold them together so that they face the same way and the capsules are about even. In a normal voice talk into the both of them, alternately muting and adjusting levels until they're of equal loudness. Now flip one out of polarity. Hear the "phase-y ness?" Slide the 451 Along the sm57 until you get the most out of phase sound you can (your voice gets thin and loses volumn). Now if you tape the two mic together at this point; put them both in polarity together you now have a two mic set-up that can be held on one sm57 mic clip and will give you the top two snare mics, of a three mic set-up (two top/one bottom) that is somewhat common in some circles. Mainly you gotten to hear how you CAN hear effect of "phase". If you adjust the balance of your mic's, in you headphones you can extrapolate this principle until you become allergic to phase. All your mics will be in , relative too each other, as much as you want.

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2002 12:18 pm

RecorderMan,In my latest attempt to finally get a decent drum sound...in my dead ass room, I tried your OH set up - and I really like it so far. Since the mics are so close, I think I’m getting better sound into them *before* the room dampening comes into play. Another tip I picked up on the DUC is a SM57 for the room mic, I know it sounds weird, but if you’re in a small room like me, the 57 will give you a more distant sound than a large condenser ...which sounds too close no matter where I put it.Thanks again for the tips. :w:

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2002 3:44 pm

Hey all!!!Dying to try Recorderman's O/H trick - I like to use the O/H's as the basis for the whole kit sound as well, so this sounds really interesting!!! Thanks Recorderman!!!Thought I'd also throw my 2 cents worth in here - one of my favorite "O/H" techniques.......actually, you can't really call these overheads 'cos they're not overhead at all.Try taking 2 large diaphragm condensers and switch them into Omni (Cardioid also works, but you get less room sound). Place them at the drummer's head level slightly behind him and a drum stick's length off each shoulder. The mics should be pointing forward. Experiment by angling the mics slightly down towards the kit and try a touch of compression.I find this gives a really nice stereo spread, with a good balance between the ambient kit sound and the cymbals. Because of where the mics are, they kind of "hear" the kit the same way the drummer does, so you get the balance and feel between the different parts of the kit that the drummer intended. It also seems to add nice "air" to tom hits. I've had quite a few drummers ask me to separately mic the ride and H/H when they see the setup (and I'm happy to humour them LOL) but have never ended up using these close mic'd tracks in the end. Usually the drummer's quite surprised at how closely the balance emulates the way they hear the mix in their head!!! Wink

Hope this is useful to someone!!!Steve Chahley.P.S. GREAT THREAD!!!!

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2002 12:28 am

This tip works like a treat!!I was doing a session at the studio where i do some work and thought i would give it a go, given all the positive feedback it has garnered recently. I have never had a hassle getting decent drum ton4es but this was the bomb and so much quicked that dicking around with other mics etc and moving. It would seem that the crux of Recordermans thoery rings true...beign that getting the kik and OH's to work cohesively in that intital phase truly does make miking a kit afun an dcreative experience instead of a chore.This new method inspired me so much i went back to the mic cabinet and added another pair of everheads. I found that the snare image was smak bang in the centre of the plane and worked exceptionally well. I have been EQing to disk and tape and this has made the initial recording extremely solid and provide and awesome basiss for a great mix. In the past i would have fooled around for hours just to get the drums to sit as they were sitting once i tried recrodermans method.My main pair of O/H's for RM's experiment were a pair of AKG 414w/ c12 capsule. These provided the centre snare image and kik while the 2nd pair of OH's were Neumann omni Km-83's which were awesome and provided deep and sparkly overtones that was missing from the 414's. THe kik was mic'ed close with an AKG d112 and a Neumann U-47 F.E.T all going through neve 1073's whihc helped a ton!THREE CHEERS FOR RM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2002 3:05 am

Someone post a couple of results from this method with a 3 or 4 mic setup!!!

Respected Past Moderator Joined: Mar 13, 2001 Posts: 1256

Thank you all again.
Hey yelhahc, that's a very good and proven approach.

Also. Don't Be afraid to move the Height up or down a bit. Do any of you out there use top & bottom mics on your toms? I've never been able to get the bottom out of the toms that I like without using a bottom mic, around 10 less in level relative to the top mic amd reverse polarity. Near ambient mics, Low to the floor can add cool notes. SM57's are excellent,excellent,excellent mics....they cover the mids so well. SoundCity in Van Nuys, CA has a '57 hanging permanatly from there high (I;m guessing 20') ceiling right over where most peolpe put their snare...It rocks..... Keep using your ears...experiment and develope a unified theory from your experiance that allows you to be differrent and more effective...rules are the fossils of someone else's experiance...definetly a good sign post, but the reason for those rules were an aspect of questions and answers at that time that MAY be irrellavant to your situation at hand.

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2003 2:38 pm

Hey there. I just recorded the keys, bass and DRUMs for my band. I used RecorderMan's technique for the overheads (used 2 NT5s). I also close mic'd the snare (top SM57 and bottom SM58), a D112 in the kick and an AT4050 on the HiHat. Wow! The drum overheads sound great. Thanks a bunch for the technique, RecorderMan. Much appreciated.

Charlie.

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:56 pm

This is a great thread. Just posting to keep it on the front of the forum. Been copy pasting to word document and making me a little brochure.
Kurt and Recorderman are the ones to learn from here :c:

Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 6:20 pm

Yes, Golli. I did the exact same thing. I saw the thread (Somebody on the digi DUC actually referred to it), and started copy/pasting into a word doc. I took it home and used it to mic the drums. I am really pleased with the results.

Charlie.

Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 6:28 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by golli:
This is a great thread. Just posting to keep it on the front of the forum. Been copy pasting to word document and making me a little brochure.
Kurt and Recorderman are the ones to learn from here :c:

Thanks golli, nice of you to say that. I miss RM and I wish he would show here more. I guess he's busy recording major acts in H-Wood.. Kurt

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