Overhead Phase

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:19 pm

yeah, i could kiss the 81 if i turned to the right...this is such a whack technique!

i'm actually at the studio now. i measured the mic1/snare distance and got 33", and the mic1/kick distance is 47.5". i have some pictures that i'll upload when i get home, but i basically used a piece of twine to get the distances correct without fumbling around with a tape measure. i taped one end to the center of the snare, ran it up to the first mic, marked the distance with a marker, then (while still held to the mic screen) ran it down to the beater pad of the kick and taped it in place there. the mark on the string is the vector (vertex?) of the two lines of distance. holding the string at the mark with a pen (as will be illustrated), i moved it back in such a way that the tension on both sides of the twine were constant. once i got them to a reasonable point, this is where i placed the second mic. i should probably go ahead now and get some sounds and see what happens.....

oy

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:01 pm

this feels like a play-by-play commentary.

i ran some sounds (myself playing drums, which i'm horrible at, so i guess the test isn't all that accurate...damn) everything seems to come through clearly when switching between mono and stereo. the bass frequencies don't get lost, and neither does the high end.

the problem now seems to be the image. when in mono, it sounds fine, but when i go to stereo with each mic panned about 80% to its respective side, the snare shift to the left. what happened??? is this simply because the first mic is picking up more of the snare (which it is, in fact)?

[after some thinking...and time]

it was my preamp gain levels. since i don't have a mindless drummer to be my guinnea pig while i turn the knobs, i had to set the gain. so, being the lazy sot that i am, i simply linked the two channels together and when from there. much better!

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:55 pm

I am dying to try this method( not on somebody else's time).I have doubts though about the image. I don't think the snare would sit in the middle focused enough. I guess I won't know until I try, or somebody posts results(only drums). Sad

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:16 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by -=alk3=-:
Recorderman,

If you have an Overhead mic directly above the snare drum, then pan it left, how is the snare going to be in the center of the mix? Truth is, it's not.

You are forgetting about the second mic, which is panned right. Because this mic is the same distance to the snare as the first one, the end result will contain equal amounts of snare in each channel.

If, for instense, you have just one mic pointing at the snare, panned center, and monitored it through your speakers, it will be the same exact thing in each left and right channel.

Make sense?

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:34 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mundox:
I am dying to try this method( not on somebody else's time).I have doubts though about the image. I don't think the snare would sit in the middle focused enough. I guess I won't know until I try, or somebody posts results(only drums). Sad

i got it working finally. the image for the kick and the snare is centered, but you'll have to be careful with the levels regarding the snare. the first mic will pick up a lot more of the snare, thus shifting it's perception to the left. the way i set the gain on the mics was to have the drummer (who showed up unexpectedly) hit the snare in quarter notes. from there, i made sure the gain was such that the output of the two overheads were equal. i'm going to start downloading and uploading the pictures i took....hopefully there is something useful on them as my camera sucks. badly.

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:00 pm

sorry about being such a post whore right now...

these pictures are really rough. i think i had the camera on the wrong setting or something. anyways, here they are.

the first two show how i achieved the "measurements" of the distances for the first mic. it was pretty simple, but it looks really odd and i don't know how many drummers are going to be please with you putting tape on their heads (or their drum heads, ha...sorry) i would suggest sending any clients out for a bite to eat while you set these up. i think this is a very accurate method, so long as you have a good feel for the tension on the lines and can replicate it in the proper direction.
<img src="http://onsidered.envy.nu/drums/1.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://onsidered.envy.nu/drums/2.jpg" alt=" - " />
...and these were shot after the second mic was put in place. again, i'm sorry about the quality - it's a logitech clicksmart 310, so that's about as good as it gets.
<img src="http://onsidered.envy.nu/drums/3.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://onsidered.envy.nu/drums/4.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://onsidered.envy.nu/drums/5.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://onsidered.envy.nu/drums/6.jpg" alt=" - " />

the second mic ended up being rough 4" back and to the right of our drummer's head, but still had an unobstructed line to the snare.
first impressions of the technique: i like it. it's certainly not as simple as setting up an X/Y pair, but it's so different and still achieves great results. over the weekend, i'll try to get some samples up if i have time. thanks to everybody that helped explain this oddity. one final question though: how popular is this technique in the business? is it just something home recording enthusiasts are doing so that the pros can sneak away with the real techniques?

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:23 am

If it sounds good, it is good. If not, then go to plan B.

Cool rig Erik!

I have the definite advantage of being my drummer, engineer, and locked-up studio. So I've worked months on dialing this in, and don't have to strike it or set up different kits. One drummer, one kit, for all time. MuhahaHAHAHAH!!!!!

I'm fine now.

I like the image, because it's not super-wide and it's not mono. Toms ring around the horn just fine and hat/snare pops in both channels. It's the sound I'm going for, but may not be for everyone.

Cheers-

Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:45 pm

recorderman, hi

with this setup, you said you pointed both mics at the snare to get a better snare sound...

i have an sm57 (snare), d112 (kikc) and a pair of mk012 (oh), i want to get a nice spread (but not exagerated) sound in toms and cymbals...if i already have a nice snare sound i point the OH to the toms right? the same tom? left rack and floor? am i making any sense here??

Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 6:42 am

Well, I finally got around to trying this out... and the imaging is really great... why did I wait so long...

If you're interested I've posted three overhead micing techniques for comparison:

* Modified Spaced Mics (Recorderman Method)
* Spaced Mics
* Coincident Mics

The Clips are only the overheads which are a pair of Josephson e22S mics.

The mics are 38 inches from the Snare strike point and 54 inches from the Kick mallet strike point.

The kit is a five piece set of Pearl Exports and Sabian Cymbals.

Here's pics of each setup...

Modified Spaced Mics (Recorderman Method)
<img src="http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/z/i/ziggyk/ModifiedSpacedMics.jpg" alt=" - " />

Spaced Mics
<img src="http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/z/i/ziggyk/SpacedMics.jpg" alt=" - " />

Coincident Mics
<img src="http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/z/i/ziggyk/CoincidentMics.jpg" alt=" - " />

<small>[ March 05, 2004, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Sonixx ]</small>

Respected Past Moderator Joined: Mar 13, 2001 Posts: 1256

Quote:

Originally posted by MemoGtr:
recorderman, hi

with this setup, you said you pointed both mics at the snare to get a better snare sound...

i have an sm57 (snare), d112 (kikc) and a pair of mk012 (oh), i want to get a nice spread (but not exagerated) sound in toms and cymbals...if i already have a nice snare sound i point the OH to the toms right? the same tom? left rack and floor? am i making any sense here??

Yes...I point them at the toms as well many times.

Oh...and Sonixx, How are those Josephson's? I'm interested in getting a bunch of them for toms (top & bottom application).

Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 9:49 am

Quote:

Originally posted by RecorderMan:
... Sonixx, How are those Josephson's? I'm interested in getting a bunch of them for toms (top & bottom application).

I wish my budget would allow these for Toms... I haven't applied them on Toms yet... so not much help there.

I find them slightly dark (which I prefer) but with good detail. I have used them on several acoustic guitars and the e22S is going to be my go to mic. I don't think the e22S is a one trick pony.

I bought them for overheads and so far I haven't been dissappointed and with your modified Spaced Micing technique, these definitely fit the bill.

Hope this helped some...

Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:54 am

Speaking of phase i thought i'd drop this note to add to the "if it sounds good it is good category "...

I just read an interesting article in the march 2004 electronic musician magazine where engineer Frank Filipetti (who i hadn't heard of but he's recorded many people, from Barbara Striesand to Korn... so he's got a pretty diverse skill set going on) talks about intentionally putting certain mics out of phase when micing drums, bass amps and guitar amps in order to use the comb filtering to eliminate frequencies that he doesn't want in the sound. He goes on to say that he finds it more effective than using EQ.

A technique not for the feint of heart to be sure but i thought it was pretty interesting. While understanding phase is essential here's a guy who has taken it to the next level where he is not eliminating phase issues but bending them to his purpose... great stuff.

Anyway, in the end it pretty much added up to "if it sounds good it is good... so just move the mics around until it sounds good."

cheers,
greg

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 7:15 pm

hey
isnt two drumsticks a klnda short distance? am afraid the drummer may hit the mic(s)...

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 8:03 pm

It depends on the player. two sticks is just a rule of thumb. I'm using 38 inches from the snare when I record my son... i setup around his playing style.

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:03 pm

so as long as both mic have the same distance from kick/snare is ok, right?

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